Talk:1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight/Archive 6

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Claims by Arab leaders (funny article, this)

Under the heading "Claims by Arab leaders" is listed: Near East Broadcasting Station. That radio station was a fully British funded propaganda station. Perhaps we should list this article in cat. "humor"? Regards, Huldra 14:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You are quite right, and I'll add additional evidence to that article soon. Another reason to laugh (or cry) at this article is the repeat of the claim that "Habib Issa" was the secretary of the Arab League. This might make one wonder why he is not listed in the timetable of Arab League secretaries at Arab League. Now we even have "Habib Issa" quoted twice. The fact is, the automatons blindly copying this rubbish from their favorite web sites or propaganda books don't have a clue who Habib Issa was. --Zero^talk 09:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

If you read carefully, you can see it doesnt say Habib Issa was the secretary of the Arab League. It says Azzam Pasha who is in fact listed on the timetable. Sources confirm Habib Issa's statements and we have it. Are you saying we need to personally know someone to add their sourced, reliable statement? Of course not. And what "the fact really is", is that you havent read the quote carefully enough, which can be called "a source of hilarity". --Shamir1 04:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right that I misread it; I carelessly assumed it was a copy the rubbish on the web in scores of places (even the Jerusalem Post!). In fact it is a copy of the slightly different rubbish on the web in scores of other places. But you still have no idea who Habib Issa is, do you? How are we supposed to know whether Mr Issa is a reliable source if we don't have the foggiest idea who he is? Why is he in a section "Claims by Arabs who fled" when you don't know if he is an Arab who fled? That's plain dishonest. Well, there is one thing we do know about "Habib Issa": he was so famous that Google can't identify him. Yes, definitely a very important person to quote. And there is an even worse problem about this quote: in fact Habib Issa did not say it at all! See below. --Zero^talk 12:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Zero, get over it. These excuses are pathetic and without merit to Wikipedia. It is sourced and reliable, besides the fact that Habib and Issa are both very common Arabic names. --Shamir1 06:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Another source of hilarity is the claim that Sada al Janub is a Beirut newspaper, as anyone who knows the subject can see just from its name that it is not from Beirut. --Zero^talk 10:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

You cannot judge by its name where its from. Thats original research on your part. It was indeed from Beirut. --Shamir1 04:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You are out of your depth, Shamir1. To a Lebanese, "al-Janub" means the south-west district of Lebanon whose main city is Sidon. The great scholar Shmuel Katz apparently didn't know that. See South Governorate. As for Sada al-Janub, it was published in the Christian village of Marjeyoun. (two sources) --Zero^talk 12:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It is nonetheless Lebanese, please stop this vandalism. --Shamir1 06:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't remove mass sourced material without consensus first, again. Amoruso 11:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't need consensus to remove junk; it is my duty as a Wikipedia editor. Inserting "Habib Issa" when you don't even know who he was is an outrageous violation of WP:RS. --Zero^talk 12:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a violation of WP:AGF. As to what you removed, you removed so many things not even remotely related to your reasoning including a recent edit by another user unrelated including events related to the conflict with hizballah including images including a dozen of other quotes. It looks bad on your part . Amoruso 12:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The section about Hizbollah was removed because Hizbollah did not exist in 1948-9 and the relevance of the insertion (other than Arab bashing) was not established. Weren't you going to tell us who Habib Issa was? --Zero^talk 12:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

THERE ARE MULTIPLE SOURCES giving the RELEVANCE OF the Hezbollah quote, its not Arab bashing please stop. It doesnt say anything about 1948-9 it SPECIFICALLY SAYS 2006! --Shamir1 04:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"It doesnt say anything about 1948-9". I AGREE, THAT'S WHY IT DOESN"T BELONG IN THIS ARTICLE! (And don't shout.) --Zero^talk 12:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

No, that is wrong. You said it doesnt belong because it infers Hezbollah was in 1948-9 which it does not. The point is, it was another instance of an Arab leader trying prompt the exit of Arabs in the region. Same thing, and again sources! THAT is why it belongs. Stop vandalising. --Shamir1 00:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't do it again, you're mass deleting sourced materials. As for the station, it being obviously anti jewish is only a reinforcement for the quote. Amoruso 12:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Smearing entire nations as being anti-semitic does not belong in this discussion. Nor does Arab-bashing.

And you've been challenged to defend Habib Issa as a WP:RS and have not yet shown a great interest in doing so.

PalestineRemembered 23:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

...and some editors here have obviously no clue as to who Georg Hakim is (or rather: was)...if they did, why do they call him "Georg Hakim"?? ...it is like insisting on calling a person "Karol Józef Wojtyła" ..(and not Pope John Paul II)

..and look at the quote that Katz have fom Edward Atiyah; then look at the whole quote (which I have added)...now; can anybody truthfully claim that Katz have quoted him "fairly"?? Regards, Huldra 17:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Enough with the excuses of removing reliable information. --Shamir1 04:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

unfortunately, the adminstrator who protected the page rewarded the vandalism by the editors who blanked out the sourced material to meet their WP:POV. Amoruso 08:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

This one sure was funny:

Zero, get over it. These excuses are pathetic and without merit to Wikipedia. It is sourced and reliable, besides the fact that Habib and Issa are both very common Arabic names. --Shamir1 06:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Does that mean we have to believe these allegations because his author has common Arabic names??? --Despanan 01:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that's what counts as "logic" around here. --Zero^talk 06:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I found this one equally hilarious: "As for the station, it being obviously anti jewish is only a reinforcement for the quote". Amoruso 12:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

....in other words: if we find any, any, "anti jewish" statements, (albeit from a a fully British funded propaganda radio station)...then we can list it under "Claims by Arab leaders." Wonderful. Just wonderful. Huldra 08:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

What should be included in the article

three new pieces of information:

• around 5-6 May 1948: Haganah intelligence and Western diplomatic missions in the Middle East at that time, picked up, recorded and quoted from Arab orders and appeals (by King Abdullah I, Arab Liberation Army Commander Fawzi Qawuqji, and Damascus Radio) to the Arabs of Palestine to stay put in their homes or, if already in exile, to return to Palestine. (Not evidence of "Arab orders" to flee but of orders to stay put during those crucial pre-invasion weeks are what one find in Israeli and Western Archives). (ref: Morris, 1994 (1948 and after; Israel and the Palestinians, p.31)
• around 6-10 May 1948: Aharon Cohen, leader of the Mapam's Arab department wrote a memorandum called: "Our Arab Policy in the Midst of the War", 10 May. In his notes for the memorandum, penned 6 May 1948, he wrote: "a deliberate eviction [of the Arabs] is taking place.... Others may rejoice -I, as a socialist, am ashamed and afraid .... To win the war and lose the peace....the state [of Israel], when it arises, will live on its sword." (ref: Morris, 1994, p. 59-61):
• around 30 june 1948: the report "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947/- 1/6/1948", produced by Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service. (ref.:Morris [1] --Huldra 17:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I fear you're allowing the Zionist ethnic cleansers to dominate this article and mislead anyone coming across it. There's really no question that the Palestinians were driven out. Only some 5 or 10% left because they were told to (Morris), none of them because of broadcasts, which were pleading with people to stay.

And the article's glaring defect is that there is no "Palestinian POV" presented. If there was, it would be saying something like "So what if they fled, they still have an absolute legal and moral right to return to their homes." What you read in here is overwhelmingly an "Israeli POV" which is effectively blatant propaganda.

PalestineRemembered 00:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The whole article is written from Morris' view - the whole description of the exodus is from what he wrote. There's only ONE section dealing with the established facts, presented in the article as THEORY, of many sources which depict the fact , represented in the article as theory and having other "sources" to contradict it, that Arab population was told to flee in order not to disrupt the attacks on the infant Israel and so nothing will happen to them - "Israel will be destroyed and you'll come back as victorious" - in fact this fact is the reason why there are still palestinian refugees waiting for Israel to one day be destroyed - well guess what it's not going to happen. Jewish refugees were settled in Israel, European refugees were settled in their countries, Indian/Pakistani refugees were settled, African refugees were settled, it's time these particular refugees were settled in Arab countries. I think that's pretty obvious - but that IS not presented in the article. What is presented in the article is YOUR POV based on Morris with only half of a section supporting the endorsement "theory". How is that blatant propoganda ? Amoruso 05:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It has been known since Walid Khalidi's paper 'Why Did the Palestinians Leave' was published in 1959 that the story you recount is false and was fabricated post-1948, largely by the Revisionist leader Joseph Schechtman. Morris' work simply confirms what Khalidi and Childers published more than forty years ago. --Ian Pitchford 17:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The very fact you said "it has been known since Walid Khalidi" demonstrates why what you said is utterly ridicilous. Your blanking of the material in the article is pure vandalism obviously and will be restored immediately when the page is unprotected by the good faith editors of wikipedia. Amoruso 08:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The good faith editors of Wikipedia will note who is in denial of Deir Yassin being a massacre.

The good faith editors of Wikipedia will note your insistence on introducing material from very POV commentators with no historical credentials.

And the good faith editors of Wikipedia will not accept that propaganda explanations of why the Palestinians left have any relevance to their rights to return to their homes.

PalestineRemembered 21:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be refreshing and telling if polemicists such as PalestineRemembered would simply state their views clearly, namely that it is better that all Israeli Jews die (worst case) or are made homeless (best case) just as long as Palestinians get what they demand. Honestly - why don't you just come out and say it? --Leifern 22:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be refreshing and telling if polemicists such as Leifern would simply state their views clearly, namely that it is better that all Palestinian die (worst case) or are made homeless (best case) just as long as Israeli Jews get what they demand. Honestly - why don't you just come out and say it? (Jeg forstår godt at du er i eksil, Leifern!) And now, when we have finished mud-slinging (hopefully), perhaps we could continue with the discussion about what should be included, and what sources are reliable? Regards, Huldra 22:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC) (or should I say: "Huldraen" ;-))

Habib Issa in al Hoda

Here are the reasons why the "Habib Issa" quotation is unacceptable.

1. Nobody can identify who Habib Issa was, so nobody knows whether his words hold any weight.
2. al Hoda was (and still is) a newspaper of the Maronite community in the United States. The animosity of the Lebanese Maronites towards the Palestinian refugees is well known, so al Hoda was a biased source.
3. The way that this "quotation" got into the Zionist quote collection was that the Revisionist writer Joseph Schechtman (see above about the background) put it in his 1952 book "The Arab Refugee Problem". We can be sure this is the source because al Hoda is in Arabic and Schechtman's English translation matches the current one perfectly. In other words, all the vast number of copies of this "quotation" in circulation derive by repeated copying from Schechtman's original or copies of it. (Around here that's called "verification".) This was not an independent work, but a project Schechtman carried out for the US branch of the Jewish Agency (citation above). This indicates that something like "according to a report commissioned by the Jewish Agency" needs to be attached, but don't bother as the whole thing is inadmissible. Now there is something else: the punctuation of the quotation in Schechtman's book does not indicate that Azzam Pasha gave the "brotherly advice" of the quotation. It is just Habib Issa's claim, whoever Habib Issa was. --Zero^talk 13:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
4. No contemporary source confirming these claims of "Habib Issa" have ever been found. We can be sure of that as such a source would have been prominently presented in place of this embarrassingly weak "Habib Issa" source. --Zero^talk 13:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

All this is your POV and totally irrelevant. We're quoting WP:RS, WP:V of the quote and it's enough. Amoruso 08:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

1. That is a ridiculous excuse. He is quoted and we have many sources. That is the point.
2. "Lebanese Maronites towards the Palestinian refugees is well known, so al Hoda was a biased source." That is not an argument. That does not make anything biased. (plus, there have been more than one al Hodas). Calling something biased does not make it incorrect and your prejudice towards maronites and assuming such a thing is absolutely pathetic.
3. That is opinion and means nothing. There are verifiable sources.
4. Ugh, please. He was a person, do you get that? A person whose statement was quoted and published. Leave it alone. --Shamir1 00:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What is ridiculous is that someone thinks it is normal to dismiss out of hand a well-known and reputable historian writing about a subject he was expert in (Walid Khalidi, per the above section), yet also normal to insist on the inclusion of a quotation from an entirely unknown writer in a minor newspaper on another continent. What is equally ridiculous is that this person has been getting away with this sort of approach to editing Wikipedia for months now. Palmiro | Talk 00:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You are encouraged to reviwe WP:NPA. Your not-so-veiled threat above is a clear vioaltion of policy. Comment on edits, not editors. Isarig 01:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Who exactly is encouraging me to review WP:NPA? What am I threatening to do? If suggesting (however implicitly) that it may be time to use Wikipedia policies such as WP:DR is a violation of policy, then the world of Wikipedia must be considered somewhat reminiscent of that of Joseph Heller. Palmiro | Talk 01:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I am encouraging you to do so. You were commenting on an editor, not his edits. If you want to implement certain aspects of WP:DR - go right ahead, no one is stopping you.Isarig 03:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"Getting away with"? Again, you can't just say, "oh well since the animosity toward ... by... is so well-known, well there we go, its biased." No, sorry, this is not the kind of edits one "gets away with" on Wikipedia. I am not dismissing anything, it seems that someone else is. We are using reputable and verifiable sources. Would you like to contact the editors of these sites/books? For some of them I have their contact information. We are not quoting an "unknown writer" we are quoting an Arab's words of his plight that has already been published, that is not something to be dismissed. Who cares what continent? Is that a rule on Wikipedia? Yes, i think I read that before: "When an editor quotes a published quotation from multiple reliable sources, please make sure the one who is quoted is in the continent at hand." Oblivious to the hundrends of thousands who were absorbed by the US, Canada, and elswhere.

Also, when direct parallels are drawn between a past incident and a recent one, it may be included. It is directly involved and extremely relevant when again an Arab leader calls his people to leave during a war from the very same exact land. This is an attempt to prompt an exodus, in exactly the same manner as before. --Shamir1 21:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What "plight" did Habib Issa suffer? How do you know? The fact is, you know nothing at all about Habib Issa, who he was, what his background was, nothing. Which continent did he live on? You don't know, do you? Stop wasting our time. --Zero^talk 01:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The point is that Shamir1 has explained to you in wikipedia rules why there's no problem at all with the quote. Please maintain WP:CIVIL with other users. Amoruso 09:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It's okay. It's excuse, after excuse. First, he says it doesnt work because Issa wasnt the Secretary General. Then that was done with, and he says it doesnt work because he believes the newspaper is Lebanese Christian. Then he says it doesnt work because this Arab man is on a different continent. Sounds like he is running out of lame excuses... But it doesn't matter because, I found a source to clear it up! [2] Look for Mr. Issa! --Shamir1 20:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

That's funny. You found someone who quotes exactly the same stuff from the same sources and gratuitously adds the word "refugee" to try to shore it up the propaganda value. There are many more articles out there who claim Issa was the secretary-general. So what? You still don't have a clue who Habib Issa was. By the way, how likely do you think it would be for a Palestinian to actually be the editor of a Maronite newspaper? --Zero^talk 04:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've not checked all of this, but it seems you've made an excellent case that this "Habib Issa" quote is worthless. Nobody has subsequently indicated it's acceptably RS.

PalestineRemembered 20:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This argument is void. Habib Issa worked for this newspaper obviously - this is who he is. - he wrote the article where he reported that the secretary of the Arab league said these words. Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam never denied he said these words. in fact, it was perfectly alligned with other statements of Azzam at the time as in the genocide of the Jews like the mongols and the crusaders and he gave advices for his brothers to leave so the canons won't shred them apart (just like with Nasrallah this time). Katz got it right of course because he's a serious historian and scholar, he never claimed issa was the secretary general himself - this obviously a wrong copy in some web-sites (probably distorted originally by people wanting to claim the lie zero made above in order to dismiss it) but it's irrelevant. Instead of saying Habib Issa one can simply say the journal's claim. This is simply the name on top of the article in the journal, it's bonus info. Katz also knows exactly what this paper is and says so in his book - a Lebanese journal paper from New York. Other have also used the correct citation which is this: Habib Issa, ed., Al-Hoda, Arabic daily, June 8, 1951, New York [3] listed as a new york paper in wikipedia just like Katz wrote. The readers can decide if it's reliable or not, it doesn't matter. It's a WP:RS journal. Amoruso 22:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's all decide together if Al Hoda is a reliable journal or not. Let's see. [4] This source is an article from 1967 that explains thoroughly that :

• Al Hoda is New York's oldest Arab-language newspaper
• It serves thousands of Arab immigrants who read the newspaper
• in 1898, in a small office on East 28th Street, Naoum Mokarzel, a young Lebanese with an interest in journalism, founded an eight-page daily called Al-Hoda (The Guidance) that was soon reaching a readership of 5,000 people.

Mary Mokarzel represents the second generation of American Arabs. Although the niece of the man who founded Al-Hoda, and although she has run the paper since 1952, Miss Mokarzel neither speaks nor reads Arabic, relying heavily on her editor Marwan Jabri to check all copy. But like her uncle who founded the paper, and her father who carried it on after, Mary has strong faith in the paper's capacity to survive. "It's true that we used to be a daily and that we're down to twice a week and it's true we're down from eight pages to six," she says, "But they were predicting the end of the Arab press 30 years ago and Al-Hoda is still very much alive."

Coming from Al-Hoda, that kind of optimism tends to stimulate all publishers. Al-Hoda, after all, is the "big" Arab paper. It's in New York. It has a publisher and an editor. It has Linotype operators. It even has more than one "department." If Al-Hoda can survive, the other publishers seem to say, maybe we can too.

Sounds pretty good to me as a source to quote the Secretary General of the Arab league which is obviously relevant and informative to this article. Cheers. Amoruso 22:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It was and is a Maronite newspaper. No avoiding that. (Actually the original source, Schechtman, calls it a Maronite newspaper.) It did not speak for Arabs in general, and anyway this is not a quotation but a claim by Habib Issa. And why should the acting editor of a Maronite newspaper in 1952 be in a position to report something Azzam Pasha said in 1948 that nobody at the time seems to have heard? Did Azzam Pasha whisper it during his sleep, perhaps? Can't have anything to do with the growing anger of the Lebanese Maronites at the masses of Palestinians in Lebanon, by any chance? Anyway, since you are sp strict on NPOV, why aren't you also quoting editorials from Arab newspapers of the 1950s about the evil Zionists? --Zero^talk 07:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a Lebanese paper as proven above. Or actually it was created by a Lebanese but it's actualyl simply an arab language newspaper in New York. It's not as if editors are all maronites or anything - I see no basis for this claim. At any case, even if it was read by the maronite immigrant community, Katz described it as a New York Lebanese Paper, most describe it was an Arab Daily in New York - this is the correct term. Why and how did he know this information ? We don't know and it's not for us to know. The paper is in Arabic and is WP:RS and has a direct comprehsive quote by Azzam Pasha - it's hard to believe someone will make this speech up especially since Azzam Pasha never denied to have said these words. It's therefore very reasonable to include this well sourced material claiming that Azzam Pasha said those words. It's not for us to decide whether Al Hoda got it right as long as we know it's a real paper and a real report. It seems logical that he said it as I've explained above and I've seen no contrary opinion on the matter from Pasha. In fact, it would seem this is a censorship attempt of something you simply don't like. As we have it, a paper quoted a quote from Pasha that was not denied and it's well known and notable and should be included. Amoruso 19:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

1952... As in only four years after 48? Right, that's the rule on Wikipedia. I read that somewhere too. It says: If you quote a sourced statement, the interview or story published most be less than four years after the incident at hand. So that means John McCain's words today mean nothing when it comes to the Vietnam War, even though he was there and was a prisoner of war. Or that Elie Wiesel's words mean nothing when it comes to the Holocaust, even though he was there and a survivor. Right, because they all violated the 4-year time limit. In that case, Childers's words are not valid either. If you want to ask Mr. Issa where he heard Azzam Pasha say it, that is a good idea, good luck to you, but sorry to say, that is not how it works here on Wikipedia. And who says, "nobody at the time seems to have heard"? Where did that come from? You can't say you know that. Arabs fled cities before Jewish troops even got there. "Can't have anything to do with the growing anger of the Lebanese Maronites at the masses of Palestinians in Lebanon, by any chance?" No, that's not how it works here, it makes no difference. That is prejudice against a people, and just assuming a bias. --Shamir1 19:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

"transfer theory" title is disgusting

"transfer theory" is a disgusting euphemism. It should be called by its real name: ETHNIC CLEANSING

Ilan Pappé agrees with you. His latest book is called The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. --Ian Pitchford 18:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Ilan Pappe is a self hating jew and is discredited after the teddy katz case, he's irrelevant. Amoruso 20:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

What does this have to do with anything? This guy is just showing everyone he does not know what a population transfer is. The homes of Jewish refugees, their money, frozen bank accounts, confiscated land, all could easily relieve the Palestinians. What you think there wasnt a Jewish refugee crisis? Of course, a much worse one. The thing different was, Israel relieved their people's refugee crisis, while the Arab nations sat on their behinds to expand a propaganda and human tool against Israel. That is what is "disgusting". --Shamir1 07:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gentlemen,

transfer idea (and not theory) refers to the fact the transfer of arab population was a major concern among Zionist leaders who debated this as soon as the end of XIXth century. This concept was developed by Morris. ethnic cleansing refers to the 3rd and 4th phase of the palestinian exodus (after july 48) when palestinian where chased by israeli soldiers. This theory is not from Pappé. Gelber, Morris, Pappé, Khalidi etc agrees on that. The only controversy is about what happens during the second (and most important) phase. Pappé and Khalidi (and others) consider what happens was also ethnic cleansing while Morris (and others like Gelber) claim it was not at all organise but was more a consequence of war. Alithien 10:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that the vandalism by Zero and co is wrong

He seems to be arguing only on Habib Issa here while removing mass sourced material of various incidents without any explanation. Something needs to be done. Sadly, he's allowed to keep this behavour. Amoruso 12:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Fortunately all editors are bound by Wikipedia policy: WP:V "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require stronger sources.... English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly... In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves." Please find verifiable sources for the alleged quoatations and other material you are adding to this article. --Ian Pitchford 18:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

And you think that what you've written down here is convincing ? You can't hide behind WP:V while blanking out whole pages without any explanations on each and every blanking - you can't just say "it's unreliable" when obviously the quotes were reliable. They were ALL reliable. Some of them weren't even quotes - there were images for example. Some of them weren't quotes - there was the Hizballah section. And so on. This is pure vandalism. Revert yourself when the page is unprotected or face permanent banning Ian Pitchford. Amoruso 18:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Where are Zero's excuses for removing all the other verifiable claims? Why is this taking so long? ALSO, information here should be included. --Shamir1 07:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

What verifiable claims are you talking about? Which of them did you verify? --Zero^talk 08:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Which one is not verified? You removed a lot more material than just one quote, which is vandalism. --Shamir1 19:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Adding material that you can't vouch for per WP:V is vandalism. --Ian Pitchford 23:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make up baloney to try to justify his deletion. It is vouched by multiple reliable sources per WP:V. This dispute is all based on something he didn't read carefully enough. Besides that, he took stuff out which he just didnt even like. Where is the WP:V to that? The quotes, Nasrallah, everything. The link I provided earlier is (just like the rest that were blindly removed) perfectly reliable. That section is written by a Palestinian! --Shamir1 01:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Habib Issa served in interim as secretary-general of the Arab League under Azzam Pasha. He assumed the role of such in the later years of Azzam's leadership, including the time he wrote in Al-Hoda.

Actually this is a perfect example of the trouble you get in to when you cut and paste material from websites. Neither you nor Amoruso has even consulted the actual hardcopy of Katz's book. He doesn't claim that Habib Issa was Secretary General of the Arab League - he quotes Habib Issa quoting Azaam Pasha (Secretary General of the Arab League) without giving any indication of who Habib Issa is or why anyone should be interested in anything he might have to say. There's not a single mention of "Habib Issa" in the entire Times Digital Archive 1785-1985 and the only mention in any book listed in Google Books is to the French translation of Katz's book. --Ian Pitchford 14:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Nonetheless, it doesnt change the fact that his words are relevant and were published in a newspaper. The indication infers he had been a refugee according to the text, as does many other sources. However, your discredit for ANY source that comes along is getting way out of hand. --Shamir1 18:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? --Ian Pitchford 18:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Ian pitchford, I think you're having some trouble to read sections above you. I have 3 differnet copies right here of Katz book in more than one language and me and Shamir1 explained to Zero0000 very well what Katz says about this quote. Your claim is bizarre. Like we explained, he says it's a lebanese new yorkian paper and that Habib Issa says that Azam Pasha said this - so I don't know why you think you suddently had a revelation on this issue. It was Shamir1 who showed this to Zero0000 who wrongly thought that Katz says that Issa was the secretary General. You should learn to read the discussion before writing nonsense next time please. As to who Habib Issa was it's a ridicilous question to begin with since it's not about Issa it's about Al Hoda - we don't care who was the person who reported a citation from CNN or BBC and we don't care who was the editor or reporter of Al Hoda as long as it was said. This was an editorial in Al Hoda. Al Hoda being the biggest arab newspaper in New York is a WP:RS. It's a citation from the Secretary General of the Arab League which is in line of other statements of his during the war and which he never denied. I hope this clears things up and we can move on without trying to censor more information. Cheers. Amoruso 18:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

You will need to find a reliable peer-reviewed source for your claims. Stop wasting our time with this nonsense. --Ian Pitchford 21:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Please stop with your cliched peer reviewed nonsense. Papers are not peer reviewd. Al Hoda is WP:RS period, this discussion was over already... Amoruso 19:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This media site identifies that he was a refugee. Whatever he was or became in 1951 really doesnt matter. What matters is that he had been a refugee. [5] 207.233.32.18 19:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

What nonsense? We are using the fact that it was published in such a paper at such a time. There are several reliable peer-reviewed sources, including one edited by Palestinians. The nonsense is the fact that you two insist it not be included for the MOST ludicrous reasons that I have never heard of throughout editing Wikipedia. This man was a refugee, there are sources that identify him as such. Whether he filled in for Azzam Pasha and acted as secretary-general could be a possibility, but we know he was a refugee per many reliable peer-reviewed sources. Same with a quote by refugee Mahmoud Abbas (yes, now the president). He wrote in Beirut, March 1976, in the official PLO journal. At the time, all he had been was a refugee and PLO member. Now he is the president of the PA. This man, whatever his occupation later was, was a refugee. --Shamir1 04:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

As I noted up above, the exact wording of the translation shows that Schechtman's 1952 book "The Arab Refugee Problem" is the original source of all these "Habib Issa" claims. Schechtman identifies him thus: "Habib Issa, acting editor of Al-Hoda (Guidance), leading daily newspaper of the Lebanese Maronite community in the United States". His identification of Al-Hoda is completely correct. I assume he has also identified Habib Issa correctly, but nobody has ever checked as far as we know. In any case, this does not identify Issa as a refugee, nor as an Arab League official. It doesn't make the slightest difference whether later propagandists have "improved" the story by inventing additional "facts" about Issa. Schechtman's words also identify the article as probably an editorial and not a news report. That makes it the personal opinion of Habib Issa. It isn't admissible. --Zero^talk 08:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Al Hoda was founded by Maronite immigrant Naoum Mokarzel, known as "110% Maronite" and "an unswerving Lebanese nationist". After his death, Al Hoda passed to his brother Salloum, who was still the owner when Habib Issa wrote. It was and remained a Maronite concern. On Apr 10 1984, NYT noted that the owner at the time was Stephen Fares, "a prominent Maronite and vice president of the American Lebanese League, which lobbies for the right-wing Phalangist Party in Lebanon." Sounds like a real pro-Palestinian newspaper (not). --Zero^talk 09:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

We really don't care because it doesn't matter whether Mokarzel was a maronite or not. It's the biggest arab paper in new york and it's a direct quote of Azam Pasha. Whetehter it's an editorial or newsreport is relevant how ? He's quoting Pasha directly in the quote. It's a quote from a WP:RS not even denied therefore admissable. Amoruso 19:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't even claim to be a direct quote. --Zero^talk 23:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course it does, he writes that this is what he said. Maybe without the uses of "" but it's certainly quoting from Pasha. Amoruso 23:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all, calm down. What does "Sounds like a real pro-Palestinian newspaper (not)" supposed to mean? Does it need to be? Are you saying it needs to be "pro-Palestinian" in order to be used? Get real. It is known that he was an Arab who fled. It is also possible that Habib Issa could have been a refugee before acting editor in 1952. The man claims what Azzam Pasha made apparent to all Arab nations. He was an Arab who fled, and his findings described part of the refugee conflict, and were published. We have to keep up with the sources. It is irrelevant who the owner supported in 1984 or ANY TIME. It is not relevant. If they found statements (biased or not), they used evidence to support their points. We also cannot prejudge a bias, and Wikipedia does not care if the owner identified as whatever percent Maronite. You know all of that means nothing here. We know that Habib Issa was an Arab (under an Arab League nation) who fled. ALL neighbouring Arab countries (and many more) were directly involved in the war and conflict. Many reliable sources call him a refugee, however, if you wish not to include that, fine, but his input is necessary. His findings show the attitude of the Arabs and the Arab League. That is all fact, and please, no more excuses based on nothing that Wikipedia stands for. You know that. --Shamir1 20:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that people stop responding to Shamir, because his case is clearly baseless and we all have better things to do. Palmiro | Talk 20:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Palmiro, I suggest you delete this remark which is very un-WP:CIVIL and anti WP:AGF. Amoruso 21:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

My name is not Shamir, if you choose to call me by my user name, add the 1. It seems you have some sort of agenda in your head, and you just want to deny the fundamentals of Wikipedia. (Not to mention you havent contributed zip to this discussion, so I dont know where that comes from). --Shamir1 00:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Neither Shamir1 nor Amoruso have actually contributed anything except rhetoric to this argument. It is time to end it. --Zero^talk 23:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we need to end this. we established there's nothing wrong with the quote and that it's WP:RS. No need to go in circles, there's no avoiding this. Amoruso 23:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Besides saying "baseless" and making up an excuse like "oh well that's on a different continent" or "those people are inherently biased", what is your argument? None. Is the quotation relevant? Yes. Published? Yes. Written on a reliable source? Several. End of discussion. --Shamir1 00:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Btw, as i understand it, we can restore all material blanked since no one disputes that and perhaps continue to talk about Issa although I think that's settled as well. Someone should unlock the article then to restore everything or atleast everything besides Issa. Cheers. Amoruso 00:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, for now, I will not add Issa. --Shamir1 00:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

A controversial statement from an unknown guy quoted by a non recognized historian is not much for wikipedia. Isn't there more acceptable quotes meaning exactly the same ? Alithien 10:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't agree to the addition of anything sourced to the Revisionist politician Katz. This is a clear violation of WP:V by Amoruso and Shamir1 and I think this unprotection request misrepresents the debate on this page: [6]. I will file a WP:RFC. --Ian Pitchford 20:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think too that Katz's quote is not appropriate. But more, what does it give to the article ? I have the feeling you "quarrel" for non important matters... Alithien 20:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

As you know Alithien I think sourcing is the most important issue for an encyclopedia. --Ian Pitchford 20:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I know ;-). And you are absolutely right. This should not even be discussed. I work the same ex1 - ex2 - ... I understood that from you. Alithien 20:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Admirable Alithien. I just wish I'd worked harder in French class! --Ian Pitchford 20:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I know about your French... So should I have learned English better.
But you know even so... It is a little bit a pity that there are so many discussions and controversies that prevent people from working well on wp:en. I mean this should not be that hard to write articles in giving all point of views and in respect with wikipedia rules. So simple and so well thought.
I often come and read wp:en because it is far richer than wp:fr but participating is too hard and tiring.
Maybe you could find your way in Citizendium's project ? Alithien 20:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm seeing nothing to indicate that Habib Issa is any kind of Reliable Source. It's up to the editors wishing to include these sources to prove they're fit, not for anyone else to prove they're unfit. As for Katz ...... here's something typical, a quote that some editors think fit to be put into articles, when it's a fact-free polemic: Katz, Shmuel (1973) Battleground: Fact and Fantasy in Palestine , p.36 ISBN 0933503032 "....... The economic interest of the individual Arab in the perpetuation of the refugee problem and of his free keep is backed by the accumulating vested interest of UNRWA itself to keep itself in being and to expand. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency is thought of as some Olympian, philanthropic body directed and operated by a band of dedicated humanitarians, devoted exclusively to the task of helping suffering refugees. The fact is that the organisation consists of some 11,000 officials of whom all but a handful are Arabs who are themselves inscribed on the rolls as "refugees." They perform the field work; they, that is, hand out the relief. The remaining handful consists of some 120 Americans and Europeans who man the organisation’s central offices. Since UNRWA itself is thus a source of livelihood for some 50,000 people, no one connected with it has the slightest interest in seeing its task end or in protesting the fraud and deception it has perpetuated for over twenty years. The myth continues to live and to thrive, feeding on itself." PalestineRemembered 21:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Katz like explained is of course an excellent source for the conflict. We're citing him as a secondary source for so many quotes by people , arab leaders, reporters etc. Nothing wrong with it. See WP:RS, WP:V, WP:CITE, Kats meets all of course but it's not relevant, nobody ever questioned his use of references. Amoruso 20:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Katz and Quotes referenced WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR

Katz is a purveyor of politically expedient - and rather absurd - falsehoods. Had the Palestinian people abandoned their country en masse at the exhortation of foreign Arabs the evidence would be voluminous, well-marshalled by the scholars, and cited ad nauseam. All you can bring to this debate are a few alleged quotations fabricated and circulated by a couple of Revisionist politicians. Your behaviour is clear evidence against the case you are trying to defend. --Ian Pitchford 20:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

There's already a section called Shmuel Katz above. I didn't start this header and if you want to post under such a header, there's one already in existance. Katz is a respected writer who wrote a very comprehensive book about the conflict, a very notable one with thousands of refernces. Whatever his opnion is we can cite it. And whatever references he brings we can bring him. You have not brought a single shred of evidence to back up your claim that the quotes are false. We can quote them from many different books, all WP:RS - we like to quote them from Katz because they're eloquently presented. You can't censor that. You simply can't. Good day. Amoruso 20:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, you can't answer the points raised or defend Katz with support from reliable sources. More evidence of the weakness of your case. --Ian Pitchford 20:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I just answered them. It's you who's trying to censor well sourced information with no evidence to back up your WP:POV. Also please note a section called Katz already exists, don't turn this talk page to your personal blog because you don't like Katz. Katz has nothing to do with it anyway, he's a secondary source for well known quotes fully referenced by WP:RS and he can comment on them if he wants to too. His book has been used widely in the conflict (also by scholary journals [7]) and it's a good source to collect these references from no doubt [8] Amoruso 20:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I am shocked to see wikipedia users quoting someone like Kate from בית"ר a clearly anti-Palestinian revisionist Zionist school of thought. Katz is respected by few! Not many and certainly his views should be clearly marked under Zionist Perception of the Exodus.

I have to agree with Ian Pitchford. Amoruso's explanation of the use of such individual in an article describing Palestinians suffering is highly irregular and against WP:RS and WP:NPOV. --Palestine48 11:19 pm, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Even though we can, We're not actually quoting Katz as we're quoting his dozens of WP:RS of newspapers, speeches and so on. The article also is not about suffering, it's about the palestinian exodus. Amoruso 00:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not about Palestinian "suffering", please bring relevance to the discussion. (And what would the Arabs have done if they had won the war, eh?) --Shamir1 22:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, Zero and Pitchford have repeatedly said that the material Katz uses is widely used by Schechtman, and as noted here [9] most of the article builds on that through Gelber anyway. End of story. Amoruso 00:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Ian Pitchford, you are arguing with the wrong people. You say "Had the Palestinian people abandoned their country en masse...", that is not an argument to editing with Wikipedia. If you want to argue with the validity of the research, contact him or his colleauges yourself, but that is not argument of why not to add it to Wikipedia. (Israeli sources, from Hebron 1929 to Jenin 2002, have tended to be much more accurate than Arab ones.) No Israeli source says that the Arab encouragement was the only factor, but did exist. --Shamir1 02:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. It wasn't a factor at all. Yoav Gelber writes: "... the Israeli traditional argument, blaming the Arab leadership for encouraging the mass flight, has no basis in the documentary evidence. As far as the documents reveal, the AHC, the ALA and the Arab governments made unsuccessful efforts to check the exodus." (Gelber, Y. (2006). Palestine 1948. Sussex Academic Press, p. 116). Please stop adding propaganda to this article. --Ian Pitchford 18:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

But he uses him for referncecs in his book, n'est pas ? Funny how any scholar you don't agree with is simply spreading propaganda. Your vandalism must be stopped. Amoruso 22:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Could Gelber's statement be clearer? --Ian Pitchford 23:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Amoruso, these are conclusions of Chap.7 of Gelber's : Palestinian society collapse. And if you look for more information about Yoav Gelber you can conclude he is not exactly a "anti israeli propagandist" but rather an "israeli historian" about who some "pro israeli bias" could be suspected.

He gives many references (other than his mind) explaining that if in some cases arab leaders called for an evacuation, that was not a arab general policy.

Benny Morris is a little bit more nuanced on the topic. Here are his conclusions (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, pp.589-590) :

From the first, the AHC and the local National Committees opposed the exodus, especially of army-aged males, and made efforts to block it. But they were inefficient and, sometimes, half-hearlted. And, at the same time, they actively promoted the depopulation of villages and towns. Many thousands of Arabs - women, children and old people, from villages around Jerusalem, the Coastal Plain and the Jezreel and Kordan valleys, and from various towns - left, well before battle was joined, as a result of advice and orders from local Arab commanders and officials, who feared for their safety and were concerned that their presence would hamper their militiamen in battle. Indeed, already months before the war the Arab states and the AHD had endorsed the removal of dependents from active and potential combat zones. And, starting in December 1947, Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants 'treacherously' acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments. There can be no exaggerating the importance of these early, Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralisation, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations.

In the conclusions of his book The Palestine War 1948, Efraim Karsh wrote a chapter named The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem (pp. 87-90). He gives same comments as the 2 above :

It is true that neither the AHC nor the Arab states envisaged a Palestinian dispersion of the extent that occurred, and that both sought to contain it once it began snowballing. But it is no less true that they acted in a way that condemned hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to exile.. (In the following paragraphs he gives many examples of such "acts".).

Alithien 14:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, it's why we're quoting Gelber, Morris, Schcetman ,who Gelber quotes too and as many sources as possible. Anyway, the last version should be restored ASAP as it contained many sources blanked for no reason. Pure vandalism by Pitchford and Huldra it seems. Amoruso 15:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Gelber's conclusion is quite unequivocal "... the Israeli traditional argument, blaming the Arab leadership for encouraging the mass flight, has no basis in the documentary evidence. I'm asking you once again to abide by the policy on verifiability and to refrain from personal attacks. Fabricated quotations from Katz have no place in Wikipedia. --Ian Pitchford 18:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You cannot use one scholar/historian's findings and not use the other, that is not what the "place" is in Wikipedia. The pure vandalism by Ian Pitchford and Huldra is wrong and should be taken note of. Again, SO much verifiable material was removed for no reason whatsoever. I am not just talking about Katz but about all of the other information that was deleted. What is the basis to that? There has not even been an argument brought up about it. You cannot just remove all of that. That makes it by definition vandalism. --Shamir1 22:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

You don't even know where this material is from Shamir1. That itself is a violation of WP:V. --Ian Pitchford 22:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

??????? Unbelievable. Not only does that not make sense, "that itself" shows you do not have a clue what I am talking about, so I really do not see what your response means. Let me put it more clear: You deleted a lot of information that was verifiable (I am not even talking about Katz). It came from reliable sources and you just removed them. Why? I have no idea. Absolutely no clue. It may just be because you don't like it. Do you have some sort of agenda you need to fulfill? You cannot just erase all of that material. I don't know what it will take for you to understand that. Again, that is vandalism. --Shamir1 18:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, you cannot add Gelber without adding Katz. That is by definition biased and one-sided. We do not just go by the words of the scholar you choose. --Shamir1 18:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. It has been pointed out already that even the Irgun website calls Katz a propagandist. It doesn't matter how many sources he claims to use because he isn't a reliable source. He's a paid propagandist for the Revisionist cause. How do you know that more than what is taken from Katz has been deleted? You haven't even consulted the book. --Ian Pitchford 19:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

How do you know what he consulted or not ? I have consulted the book (books, in different languages) all right, and you are dead wrong. You have broken right now every rule of wikipedia including WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL. You should be looking for a hefty ban unless you self revert after un protection. Btw, that "irgun" link is of course irrelevant, and it's bad translation. Amoruso 19:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If Katz's claim is correct then you should be able to provide evidence from scholarly sources that you have consulted. Please do so. --Ian Pitchford 19:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It does not label him as a propagandist. Secondly, we have to be fair. If we use Katz's findings then we say "This is what Katz found". All we need to do is give him credit. His work is published and has been used. You may disagree with it, but that does not make any difference here. I repeat: you cannot add Gelber without adding Katz. That is by definition biased and one-sided. We do not just go by the words of the scholar you choose. Because you disagree with it or see it as false does not stop it from having merit. It deserves input, and so does yours. Aside from that, I am close to furious with the fact that verifiable material that had nothing to do with Katz was deleted. For that, I question your judgment. --Shamir1 06:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Can someone tell me if the point is :

• to determine if Katz is a reliable source (for a fact he would report) OR
• to determine if Katz's point of view is pertinent for the article (for a analysis he would give in respect of NPoV)

This is of course different.
That is why I patiently asked you just below to give "1 information" at a time to focus on 1 matter at a time. Alithien 10:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

step by step

In front of the current problem, to move forward, I would suggest that Shamir1 and/or Amoruso or any other give 1 information (only 1) they would like to introduce in the article and they give the source (only 1 too) they have for this. This could be a good starting point to try to find a solution. But please, try to refrain from comments and/or personnal attacks and/or additional considerations. I think something such as what follows should not be bad :

Between December 1947 and January 1948, fights in Palestine made around 1000 deaths and 2000 injured people (United Nations Special Commission, First special Report to the Security Council : The Problem of Security in Palestine, 16 avril 1948, §.II.5)

and be ready to prove you can show where you get the information from (whether from the internet or from a book you could scan if needed or in explaining where you consulted this book). Would this be ok ? Alithien 10:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think so, there's too much information. It should be the other way around - restored everything, and then argue one by one if they want to drop anything. We agreed to drop Issa until it's settled although now I want it back again because they broke good faith and reverted the whole thing blanking too much sourced material. Amoruso 10:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

There are 2 answers to this :

• a basic principle of rhetoric is when somebody says many many things, it is simple to "counter" on focusing only on its weakest point and so to succeed in discrediting everything he says.

If you want to add many many things, it is so simple to find only one little "wrong" thing. That is why it is better, for the point you want to introduce, to go step by step. (I precise -if needed- that I don't say this is what happens here).

• In wikipedia, "the charge of the proof" is not the responsability of the one who removes information but is of the one who wants to add something.

Therefore, instead of discussing in all directions, a simple way to move forward is to go step by step, one information with one source at a time and to analyse this under the eye of the wikipedia rules and principles of work.

Alithien 14:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a flaw here as this information wasn't added together, it was removed together. the burden of proof was at the time. I can remove whole articles and start asking people to go one by one ? Not that I mind, they don't have excuses for any. Amoruso 15:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Amoruso, what do you expect ?

You want those who doesn't share your point of view to admit you are right or you want to find a solution to add information in the article ?

I will not discuss with you the fairness of the solution I propose. Whether we try to follow this, or we stay where we are.

So, could you please give 1 information (just one) with 1 source (just one) you would like to introduce in the article so that we can discuss about this ? Step by step we can then go back to fundamental wikipedia principles and see how they apply to the information introduced.

For your information I am quite neutral here even if I have quarrelled very strongly with Ian in the past. Alithien 08:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. This article reeks of POV. So much verifiable information has been removed. Let Katz back in, his work is widely used. Would it be fair not to let Said's work be used? We cannot just pick which ones you guys want to be used. Please learn to be fair. Bias is not welcome here. All we do is say This is Katz's findings. THAT'S IT! Voila! The rest of the material that had nothing to do with Katz has the right to be restored. Removing them for no apparent reasons shows great bias. This is a cooperative effort, not just the ones you like. --Shamir1 08:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Katz doesn't have "findings", he isn't a scholar or historian. He only has "claims", and these are not taken seriously by scholars. I repeat my claim that you did not consult most (or all) of the "sources" you added. --Zero^talk 12:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Shall I again produce your own edits, from another article's Talk page, in which you accept that he is an historian? Please stop this campaign to remove Katz from WP. You don't like his background and opinions - we get that. Isarig 14:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

You will not find solutoins the way you all discuss.

There are rules in wp to determine if somebody can be a source. Just follow them.

To be a reliable source, this source must be used as a reference by other reliable sources. Arre there scholars who quote Katz ? If some, that's ok. If nobody, that is a problem. That's all. Alithien 21:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

A typical example is Lapierre et Collins's O Jerusalem. They are neither scholar nor historians. But they are quoted by Karsh, Morris and Gelber (among others). So they become a reliable source. So easy. Alithien 21:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Mitchell Bard has used Katz if that is what you are asking, as does Joel Himelfarb, David Meir-Levi, and others. Zero, please stop. All sources have been reliable. Okay, we get it, you don't like Katz, you are opinionated, good for you, but this isn't Zero's article. Learn to cooperate. If Katz has found something we can't just deny it because of one's prejudice. Katz's work is widely used and quoted and you all know it. Would it be fair that I dont allow you to add Said? Is it fair that you have removed mass amounts of material that is sourced (again, NOTHING TO DO WITH KATZ)? Of course not. Learn to be fair. Learn not have bias here. Learn to eliminate heavy POV. --Shamir1 21:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Shamir, the NPOV policy states that "article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Katz's claims are false, as reliable sources indicate, hence they should not appear in this article. --Ian Pitchford 22:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Pitchford, I'm really wondering whether you believe what you're saying or not. Saying that Katz's claims are false is your WP:OR of choice choosing one side of an opinion over another. In fact, that side is not convincing at all. The witness reports and sourced and verified information here is exactly what needs to be in the article, especially in that section. I would expect you to follow wikipedia's guidelines and even restore the information you blanked yourself as a gesture of good faith since obviously you haven't shown what's wrong with that information except it doesn't conform to the opinion you have over the exodus - which is not a valid reason. Cheers. Amoruso 02:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Pitchford, I dont know what it is going to take for you. IT IS PUBLISHED by several verifiable sources, he is quoted and used. Pleae keep your opinion out of here. We get it, you don't like it, we don't care. Any smart person knows that scholars and historians almost never agree on anything, however, such people still may have input. Is it really your intent anyway? Your removal of other non-Katz material proves otherwise. It is not right for anyone to toss out any information they don't like for no apparent reason. --Shamir1 02:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Alithien, please have a look here, Katz has been extensively quoted by scholars and scholary journals, numerous examples are found by simple searches. [10] Let's move on, unlock the article, restore the WP:RS information and live happily. Cheers. Amoruso 02:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello.

Shamir1. Bard is not a reliable source. I bought his book and periodically receive his updates about "myths and facts". He is not at all neutral and even modify information.

Amoruso and Shamir1, why don't you just give 1 precise source to stop the polemic.

Katz is quoted by ThatScholar, at that page, of this book so that we can check. Alithien 11:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Shamir1 mentioned Mitchell Bard, Joel Himelfarb, and David Meir-Levi. The first two cited Katz as editors of the propaganda handbook "Myths&Facts" that has no scholarly value, and in any case neither of them wrote that text but only inherited it from earlier propagandists. Neither Himelfarb nor Meir-Levi ever published in the scholarly literature on the Middle East as far as I can tell. Mitchell wrote a book on Ethiopian Jews and in 1990 published an opinion piece in the semi-scholarly magazine Orbis. Whether he cited Katz in any of his own work, I don't know. Overall no evidence whatever of Katz's status as a historian. The only cautious citing of his work that I have ever come across is in relation to his biography of Jabotinsky, which is of interest because Katz was an eyewitness and not because Katz is a respected historian. For example, an article on Jabotinsky by Jan Zouplna in the Journal of Israeli History (Vol 24, March 2005, pp35-63) refers to Katz's biography twice, after noting that "Shmuel Katz’s biography lacks the scholarly merits of Schechtman’s work" (p37). The first reference is to an opinion of Katz that "does not seem plausible", and the second is to note that a fact claimed by Katz seems to be chronological impossible. (This example goes to show that simply identifying a citation made by a scholar does not prove much; you also have to show that the citation affirms scholarly status.) --Zero^talk 12:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

al Nakbar

is the name "al Nakbar" used to refer to the "the refugee flight of Palestinian Arabs during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war" or to the war itself? I always understood it as being the name that the arab world prescribed to the war itself, not only because it was a catastrophe that Palestinians were displaced, but because it was a catastrophe that the State of Israel was created/not destroyed. should the opening line be changed? In the same light, should the title of the page be changed to Al Nakbar to encompass all of this? ILikeHowMuch 03:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)