Talk:1953 French Grand Prix

Note: Reliable sources sometimes disagree about race results. In this case there is disagreement over the fastest lap in the race. Current consensus is that Fangio only set fastest lap with a time of 2:41.1. Before changing this, please see the 53 FRA entry on the disputed results page and read the discussion below, then start a discussion either on this page or on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One. The consensus regarding other disputed results are listed on Wikipedia:WikiProject Formula One/Disputed results.

Fastest Lap

Just about every source I can find states that Fangio's fastest lap was 2:41.1, not 2:41.0 which is stated in statsF1: [1]. However, many sources also say this time was equalled by Ascari, but this has implications for championship points. Unless otherwise indicated all sources give Fangio's time as 2:41.1:

Only Fangio:

• World Championship (1959) - Gregor Grant (note for unknown reasons no final championship tables are presented in this book!)
• StatsF1 [2] (time 2:41.0)
• Old F1 website (although I'm not sure what's going on with the points there!) [3]
• Power and Glory vol 2 (William Court) - also reflected in points table
• Marlboro Grand Prix Guide, 1983 edition (Jacques Deschenaux) - also reflected in the points table
• A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing Volume 5 1950-1953 (Paul Sheldon) - also reflected in the points table
• FORIX (subscription site) - time 2:41.0
• ChicaneF1 [4] (time 2:41.0)
• grandprixhistory.org [5] (says Fangio "left the lap record at 115.91mph", which equates to 2:41.1)
• MotorSport Magazine - August 1953 issue (lap time 2:41.1) [6]
• Autosport Magazine - July 10 1953 issue (lap time 2:41.1 at 115.91mph/186.531kph)

Both Fangio and Ascari:

• The French Grand Prix (1967) - David Hodges
• Grand Prix! - Mike Lang. Note that this is also reflected in the final points table
• Current F1 website [7] and reflected in the points table [8]
• Motor Racing Through the Fifties - Peter Lewis
• Silhouet website [9]
• Motorsport Magazine database [10], reflected in points table [11]
• Formula 1: All the Races: The World Championship Story Race-By-race: 1950- 2011 - Roger Smith pg 34 (ISBN 9780857330581) (laps 25 & 37 respectively, 186.525kph/115.901mph)
• Formula 1: Car By Car 1950-59 - Peter Higham pg 129. Explicitly mentions that "some sources credit Fangio along with the fastest lap during the French GP". Also includes points table.

I will check other sources and add them in, or feel free to add others yourself. But I'm definitely not sure how this should be handled! A7V2 (talk) 12:05, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I've added a few additional sources, but I'm not sure it helps much - there are reliable sources on both sides of the ledger! DH85868993 (talk) 09:17, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I know MotorSport Magazine list a shared fastest lap in their database, but searching through their archives I found their August 1953 issue with a full report and full results in question listing Juan Manuel Fangio as having recorded the fastest lap of 2:41.1 alone at an average speed of 186.531kph. I have always found these comtemporary grand prix reports by MotorSport Magazine very reliable.Tvx1 13:24, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

It's unfortunate we may never have a definitive answer (see, for example this nostalgia forum thread: [12]). I think in the absence of anything definitive we leave it as Fangio only, but since the vast majority of times give 2:41.1 I think we should report the time as that. Probably should put a note somewhere in the article too!

As I side note, I think from reading the nostalgia forum thread I linked above, that the issue may have arisen from rounding errors with either recording lap times, or looking at the times that laps were completed and subtracting. But without anything concrete who can say. A7V2 (talk) 10:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree with leaving it as Fangio only, with a time of 2:41.1. Considering it affects the championship points totals, I'm amazed that there are such discrepancies between sources. Perhaps the timekeepers were too busy enjoying "the race of the century" to keep a close eye on their stopwatches :-) DH85868993 (talk) 11:39, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

FWISW, the link to the forum made me remember I own a copy of "Mon ami mate", a 1991 book about the exploits of Peter Collins and Mike Hawthorn (who won this particular race). It contains a full print of the report of the 1953 French GP in the July 10th 1953 issue of Autosport magazine. It has the exact same results and fastest lap information as the aforementioned contemporary Motorsport Magazine report, while also given a detailed description of the fastest lap progression in the report. I can't help but notice that all contemporary reports seem to have the fast lap only for Fangio at 2:41.1, whereas those claiming a shared fastest lap are much more recent.Tvx1 13:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd sort of noticed that myself. I have a theory (and only a theory) that in the rush to release results it may have just been missed that Ascari set the same time, or it was some kind of irregularity in the timing, and then it was only noticed later on (perhaps by David Hodges when writing his book, as he mentions that in writing the book he looked at the original records, but he doesn't make any mention of this particular discrepancy. Weirdly in the actual text of the 1953 race he writes "...Fangio put in the day's fastest lap, 2 min 41.1 sec, to move up again." but doesn't mention Ascari equalling it except in the Results section). Another possibility is that I know the organisers at Reims liked to have any excuse to give away champagne, so probably had a separate prize for fastest lap which was either awarded to the driver setting the time first in the event of a tie, or they just mistakenly didn't share it with Ascari (timing error or overlooked, etc), therefore making it look more official that Fangio alone set fastest lap. But of course these are just theories! A7V2 (talk) 00:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Or, more simply, Fangio did indeed set the sole fastest lap of 2:41.1 and the contemporary reports written by people who actually attended the Grand Prix are actually correct, whole the later reports, listing a joint fastest lap, written by people who used third- or even fourth hand information are simply wrong.Tvx1 14:34, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

@Tvx1: "written by people who used third- or even fourth hand information" - who? People like Peter Lewis who wrote Motor Racing Through the Fifties based on his own notes from his attendance at the races as a journalist? Or David Hodges who consulted the original ACF records when writing The French Grand Prix? I don't have a copy myself but in the forum thread I linked above someone mentioned that Autocourse gave a lap chart showing Ascari as equalling Fangio's time but they only credited Fangio. Was the lap chart correctly based on the original or not? We don't know, and unless someone has access to the original timesheets we will never know but we don't have enough information to conclusively discount either position. A7V2 (talk) 01:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

It seems like I'm a little late to the party but I've just added another source for Fangio & Ascari (ISBN 9780857330581) which states that they were set on laps 25 and 37 respetively at 186.525kph/115.901mph. FozzieHey (talk) 18:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I have added Peter Higham's book above. I think it's definitely worth adding a note to this article at the very least (and will do so tomorrow probably), but possibly also to 1953 Formula One season, Alberto Ascari and Juan Manuel Fangio since it does have implications on career points etc. A7V2 (talk) 09:04, 19 March 2022 (UTC)