Talk:1988 violence in Shusha and Stepanakert

Appropriate title?

The emerging consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stepanakert pogrom is to keep this article, but there is also an emerging consensus that the title may be inappropriate. I have no opinion on the appropriate title, but figured it would be worthwhile to start this discussion. So am pinging @Eostrix and Brandmeister as those who suggested that the title might be changed. Feel free to ping others whose input might be helpful. AleatoryPonderings (talk) 16:15, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I also believe the word "pogrom" isn't appropriate for the article. Though I have no idea what it can be replaced with. I would love to see some suggestions. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 16:46, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I still don't see reasons to keep the article, otherwise Armenian-Azerbaijani clashes in Stepanakert (per HRW]) could be an appropriate title. GevHev4 (talk) 17:20, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Multiple users have replied to your nomination for deletion here. If you disagree with the points made there, please reply to them. And "clashes" doesn't seem to be a correct word to use as the events weren't 2 sides attacking each other, but rather one side kicking out the other. Any other suggestions? — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 19:00, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Till now HRW's 5 words seem to be the only reliable source on this topic. And it calls the events "clashes between Armenians and Azeris in Stepanakert". you believe it is "rather one side kicking out the other": any reliable sources? GevHev4 (talk) 19:25, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

From Black Garden by Thomas De Waal: "But it did ignite in September 1988, when, within a few days, all the Armenians were expelled from Shusha and all the Azerbaijanis were driven from Stepanakert". Not sure if "driven from Stepanakert" classifies as clashes. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 20:23, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Not sure if half a sentence from a book should be turned into an article․ GevHev4 (talk) 20:39, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Are we discussing a new name for the article or its deletion? If it's the latter, then I suggest you reply to the points you disagree with here rather than bringing your concerns here. — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 22:25, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• Not sure, but probably not pogrom. Searching for pogrom doesn't bring much, at least not in English, and what it does bring - [1] - ties it together with Shusha. I could see clashes or violence in the name. I could also see the events of Shusha in 1988 tied together into one article, essentially this was a series of skirmishes/clashes/shelling/water-supply/other incidents between the two locations which led to Azeris being expelled from Stepanakert and Armenians from Shusha. This was the prelude to the larger war in which Shusha was the main Azeri strongpoint and Stepanakert the Armenian strongpoint, which ended in the Capture of Shusha.--Eostrix  (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 06:04, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

1988 Violence in Shusha and Stepanakert could be a compromiss. GevHev4 (talk) 08:20, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

To put things in geographic perspective - Shusha is 7 kms to the south, and 1,000 meters above Stepanakert and sits on the Goris-Stepanakert highway which is the main road to Stepanakert from Armenia. Events here are connected by sources, time, and geography.--Eostrix  (^{🦉 hoot} _hoot🦉) 08:44, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

• Azerbaijani sources call it pogrom (1) or massacres (2), and I doubt calling it "clashes" would be a proper naming. Anti-Azerbaijani violence in Stepanakert might be fitting though. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 06:45, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Azerbaijani sources are nor neutral nor reliable. They are known for denying Armenian Genocide and calling any event like March Days or Khojaly massacre a genocide. According to Victor Schnirelmann, "It seems that in January 1998 the history of the Azerbaijani people began to turn into a powerful political weapon in the hands of the President of Azerbaijan. In a speech delivered by him at a meeting of the Constitutional Commission of the Republic of Azerbaijan on January 14, 1998, President H. Aliyev said: “The historical lands of Azerbaijan must be returned. And our people must certainly know which lands are our historical lands, which lands we lost, why we lost them, undoubtedly, they must be returned. If we cannot achieve this, then future generations will do it. " In March of the same year, President H. Aliyev signed a decree declaring March 31 the Day of the Genocide of Azerbaijanis. In the decree, the Russian-Iranian peace treaties of 1813 and 1828. were declared the beginning of the "dismemberment of the Azerbaijani people, the redistribution of our historical lands" (we are talking about the period when the East Caucasian Turks did not even think about becoming an "Azerbaijani people" and did not even know this term. - V. Sh.). The decree made it clear that only after these agreements, a mass of Armenian newcomers poured into the territory of the Yerevan, Nakhichevan and Karabakh khanates, where Azerbaijanis had previously lived. Having appeared there, the latter allegedly immediately engaged in the oppression of local Azerbaijanis and the implementation of plans to build a "Great Armenia". As if for this they began to fabricate a false history of the Armenian people. The decree was replete with terms such as "occupation", "invaders", "criminal plans", "spiritual aggression", "genocide", etc. The Armenians were accused of appropriating the historical and cultural heritage of the Azerbaijani people" (Шнирельман В. А. Войны памяти: мифы, идентичность и политика в Закавказье — М.: Академкнига, 2003. — С. 248—249.). GevHev4 (talk) 08:13, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

One sided intro and conclusion

The article only mentions the ethnic Azerbaijanis that left Stepanakert, but there is no mention of the 2,000 ethnic Armenians who were forced out of Shushi and their homes burned down by ethnic Azerbaijanis.

This was nearly 10% of the city (as it had been emptied of ethnic Armenians systematically over the previous 100 years ever since the massacres of Armenians by Azerbaijanis in the 1920s). Much higher than the relative percentage of Azerbaijanis that left Stepanakert.

On top of Shushi being used as a high-ground missile launching spot for ethnic Azerbaijanis who shelled Stepanakert for months on end (using the churches as missile silos, knowing Armenians would avoid hitting them), this expulsion of the small remaining indigenous Armenian population was a major symbolic reason for its recapture and the tides turning in the first karabakh war.

So to the point. It should be added in both instances where there is mention of the expulsion of ethnic Azerbaijanis from Stepanakert, that the 1,901 remaining ethnic Armenians (~10% of the population) were expelled from Shushi. Danniel33 (talk) 20:47, 01 September 2023 (UTC)