Talk:1989 Czechoslovak Open

Requested move 16 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 13:08, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

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1989 Czechoslovak Open → 1989 Cedok Open – As of czech report https://web.archive.org/web/20160304195948/http://www.nm.cz/admin/files/HM/download/novod_dejiny/telesna_vychova/tenis.pdf page n.8 there are clearly 3 editions of Cedok Open, including the 1989. The dates also match for all 3 editions. 95.250.109.34 (talk) 21:24, 16 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 08:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Tennis has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 08:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Czech Republic has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 08:51, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Keep - per the English sources I'm seeing at Newspapers.com they use "Czechoslovak Open Grand Prix" and "Czechoslovakian Open GP" for the final match in 1989. Dozens of clippings. Including the Daily Telegraph and the Washington Post. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:35, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Fyunck(click):

  Sorry, see this later.

  Since Cedok is a sponsor and following guidelines for yearly edition, looking also at subsequent titles of this very tournament 1992 Skoda Czechoslovak Open, 1995 Skoda Czech Open, I think instead of debating onto which source is more reliable, if that in original language or the english you provided (which probably are not even in conflict since the czech one enlisted the Cedok Open under a "Czechoslovakian" (in capital letters) tennis association" title), i think Cedok Czechoslovak Open could be a good compromise which leave the sponsor and the geographic mention. Let me know if you agree and i'll proceed with the move. Cheers. Opencross (talk) 15:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  But we aren't sure of that. Tournaments, like Miami, have had the press call them by their former names long after the sponsor changed. We usually call the tournaments by their English name, sponsored or not, for the yearly event... and then always non-sponsored for the entire multi-year event. We have also had events with a sponsor, where the sponsor's name is not officially part of the event name. Since I don't read Czech, do we have an English source that calls it the Cedok Open in 1989? We do for prior years. And have hundreds of newspaper hits for 1989 Czechoslovak Open that would need to be overcome. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Fyunck(click):We can discuss at lenght, but you know (american) generalist journalists aren't going that deep as to check if a czech tournament is called that way. As a personal rule i would trust a specialized journalist over a generalist one and that's why i was going with the moving, we have a technical tennis report from a czech journalist. I am no czech-proof but i use google translate, it's a report,i can't get it topsy-turvy that much.

  6, 60, 600 article don't quite add up, since usually very few re-check the info, while 98% just trust their source (big sellers) but not verify, not to mention those newspapers under the same corporation umbrella, which literally copy from one another.

  Anyhow, i run your source for Cedok Open on 1987-88-89 years. Only 1987 edition got hundreds of citations, 1989 has 3 mentions, 1988 nihil.

  So, following your criteria, we need to change at least 1988 (and 1989 as well) edition name. What are your suggestions? And this time we need some lines identifying that tournament, thus the finalists or/and the score at least to hard proof that. Or we could go with the technical report, 3 perfect matching case ( even the dates coincide)... And please use Reply template to forward your answer next time, so your message will be notified. Cheers. Opencross (talk) 20:54, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Opencross: With reply template it's only to you and this is for the whole tennis project, not my own talk page. But I added it. We are only two. These things are always tough to figure out. The dates also coincide with Czechoslovak Open in 100s of sources. I only saw one source that listed the Grand Prix tour list and it had Czechoslovak Open if I recall correctly. Certainly, at the very least, the opening sentence could say "The 1989 Czechoslovak Open, also known as the Cedok Open and Prague Open. Actually, as I look at the history, the event Prague Open (1987–1999) is really not called the Prague Open. It seems to always be called the Czechoslovak Open, the Czechoslovakian Open, or the Czech Open. Perhaps the main article should be moved to either Czechoslovakian Open (which now redirects to a defunct badminton article) or Czechoslovak Open (tennis) (and move the ancient defunct golf event to Czechoslovak Open (golf). Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:50, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Fyunck(click): I didn't quite get which edition you were referring to in your comment.. 1989?? And i seem to also notice you didn't make any suggestion on 1988 title.

  So, it's either choosing your source and have "Czechoslovak Open" for 1989 edition, but you need to find a referenced title for 1988 (again there's no mention of Cedok Open for that year in your source), or going with the czech source and make both 1988 and 1989 editions Cedok Open. Opencross (talk) 23:03, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Opencross: I'm not sure those are our only choices since we have a few conflicting names. I'm beginning to see your suggestion of "Cedok Czechoslovak Open" for all three editions (87,88,89) as the best we can do here. I also found an error for the 1999 edition as it was not sponsored by Paegas... it was called the "Tento Czech Open." Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:36, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Fyunck(click): I wrote those two choices to point out that the sources were and are mutually exclusive, you cannot choose to see what one source says about one edition (1989) and ignore the others (1988). That was the sense of that rationale. Using my compromising title could exacerbate that "referencing" problem. Anyway, since the source for "Cedok" is already provided above, you need to find one for "Czechoslovak" and then you can move this article to the new name.

  About the 1999 edition, it appeared with that name, but as far as i was digging around it (also looking into different wiki language versions for references), the source is ultimately tennislive.net, a live score website, i.e the kind of sources i tend not to rely on, not as primary sources, since they made mistakes here and there. Thus I prefer to keep Paegas lacking a better source rather than change it using an unreliable one. Opencross (talk) 02:10, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

@Opencross: As far as 1999 Tento we have the Indianapolis Star. 1988 we have the Czechoslovak Open from New York Daily Times and Fort Worth Star. The Grand Slam History uses Cedok Open for 87,88, and 89. It also uses Tento Czech Open for 1999. The LA Times uses Czechoslovak Open for 1988 and 1990. In 1987 we have plenty of Cedok Open sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:23, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.