Talk:2002–03 Iraqi First Division League

New changes

Hi @SportingFlyer: and @Nehme1499:. Sorry to bother you, but if you have a few minutes spare, could you check the new intro for the page 2002–03 Iraqi First Division? We had a discussion a while back about the page - there were some journalists who had recorded that the season was null/void, but several reports from major websites like AFC, BBC, CNN, ESPN and others said that Al-Shorta won as well as most sources noting the club's 2019 title as their 6th one. We decided that we would need confirmation from the Iraqi FA to verify whether Al-Shorta had won. Recently, I found this in an article from 14 October 2003 which confirms that the Iraqi FA ended the league at round 27 of 29 (not null/void) and that Al-Shorta won. The direct source requires a membership to read but you can read/translate the article here. I've tried to reflect all the above info as clearly/concisely as possible in the article; if you have time to give it a quick read and let me know if it is explained clearly or needs anything added, would be appreciated! Thanks. Hashim-afc (talk) 02:58, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm still a bit dubious, in the sense that "... [Al-Shorta] won first place with 65 points" doesn't 100% mean that they were awarded the title. It may simply mean that, for the purposes of the table, Al-Shorta were 1st, and gained access to the 2004 AFC Champions League, but weren't officially awarded a title. I'm a bit more inclined to say that they have won the title, but still. Also, have the IFA spoken about this issue between 2003 and 2020? It seems a bit strange that the IFA wouldn't have issued an official statement regarding the 2002–03 season's title. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 16:56, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: Unfortunately the IFA have not spoken about this issue since. The war was a chaotic time which made it hard for news to reach mainstream media, this is the only available quote from the IFA regarding the season. The part where it says Al-Shorta won "with 65 points" is particularly important, since that means the league was ended at round 27. Al-Zawraa were third when the league was stopped (at round 29) but fourth at round 27 and the CNN article says Al-Zawraa were "fourth-placed", so this IFA quote definitely seems to confirm the CNN article as correct and reliable, and that same CNN article states that Al-Shorta were "national champions". The IFA quote also says Al-Najaf "finished" 2nd whereas Al-Shorta "won" 1st - I wouldn't expect them to say they "won" if their position didn't come with winning a title (i.e it would say "finished" like it did for Al-Najaf). Add in the reports from AFC/BBC/ESPN that noted Al-Shorta as champions and it all points much more towards that conclusion, rather than the season being null and void. Either way, I've kept the part about journalists recording the season as null and void to ensure both sides are presented in the article. Hashim-afc (talk) 00:06, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Again, I'm more inclined to agree with you, and say that Al-Shorta won the league. However, hasn't there been any mention at all between 2003 and 2020? It seems very absurd that even, for example, in the 2018–19 season, the IFA (or any fully reliably Iraqi news source, not affiliated with Al-Shorta) hadn't stated something like "Congratulations to Al-Shorta, for winning their sixth Iraqi Premier League!". Just a mention of what title the 2018–19 title was (whether the 5th of 6th) from the FA would be all that's needed. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 00:24, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: There have been several independent news sources which stated that it was Al-Shorta's 6th title, for example Iraq Today, Soccer Iraq, Goal AR, AS Arabia and others. But the IFA itself has not mentioned the number of titles for Al-Shorta. Hashim-afc (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

What about FIFA, the AFC, or WAFF? Do those entities mention anything at all regarding Al-Shorta's titles? Also, Hassanin Mubarak at RSSSF seems to list both the 02/03 and 13/14 seasons as "abandoned" (implying that Al-Shorta have 4 titles, not 6). Have you tried contacting him, and asking him why he decided to list those two seasons that way? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 01:37, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: Yes, the AFC says that Al-Shorta have 6 titles: see here. RSSSF/Mubarak was discussed previously, for 2003 it was due to the journalists which said the season was cancelled (which I have referenced in the 2003 article), for 2014 there was confusion/dispute among sources due to conflicting IFA quotes but the IFA vice-president cleared it up on 24 July 2019 and confirmed that Al-Shorta were the champions of the 2014 season. As a note, RSSSF is not the best source for Iraqi football in general because it uses Wikipedia as a source on some pages and has several mistakes regarding finals, titles, tables, names, caps. Hashim-afc (talk) 03:03, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Well that's settled: the AFC recognize "six top-flight titles", ergo both the 02/03 and 13/14 titles. In my opinion, the order of importance should be:

1. The country's federation (Iraqi Football Association)
2. FIFA
3. The continental governing body (The Asian Football Confederation)
4. The sub-continental governing body (The West Asian Football Federation)

Unless either the IFA or FIFA clearly state otherwise, Al-Shorta have won six league titles. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 03:22, 19 May 2020 (UTC)