Talk:2003 Scottish Parliament election

Standardisation of elections to the Scottish Parliament naming convention

It has become drawn to my attention that there is an inconsistency between the names of elections to the Scottish Parliament. 1999 was entitled Scottish Parliament election, 1999, the article for 2003 was originally entitled similarly as Scottish Parliament election, 2003 however a unilateral edit without any consensus by Barryob moved the article to Scottish Parliament general election, 2003 the same situation of a unilateral rename took place for the 2007 election as well. The 2011 elections was as far as I can tell originally entitled Scottish Parliament general election, 2011 yet this article created by Barryob who seems to have made changes to other articles in order to justify his own article naming. A look at Barryob's user page clearly shows him to be a Scottish nationalist, in Britain the term general election is used in context the election to the House of Commons and so the inclusion of the word general may be considered POV considering the confirmation of complete sovereignty the term implies.
There is also a precedent for naming articles as election rather than general election seen in all National Assembly for Wales (the Welsh Assemblies formal name) elections, most recently: National Assembly for Wales election, 2011. The same situation exists for the elections to the European Parliament, most recently: European Parliament election, 2009. The Welsh Assembly is of course also a devolved body like that of the Scottish Parliament and whilst some may argue that as a Parliament the naming convention is different for Scotland the similar situation for the European Parliament clearly disproves this. Please place names and position below (new votes at the bottom of the list please) and a small justification, any larger comments for debate should be placed in the sub section provided. Shatter Resistance (talk) 15:38, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

• Strongly agree - Shatter Resistance (talk) 15:38, 22 May 2011 (UTC) - Proposed change.

Note to closing Admin - nominators don't get to "vote" on their own nomination. That the nominator "Strongly agrees" with their own proposal is a given. --Mais oui! (talk) 08:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per the Scotland Act. A 'general election' is simply an election where ALL the members are up for re-election (as opposed to a 'by-election').--Mais oui! (talk) 08:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose, for the same reasons as Mais Oui says above, changed my mind since last week. Although I'd say (and prefer to say) "Scottish Parliament election" when discussing it, I (and most reports I heard on the News last year) would also say "Westminster election" when talking about a "UK General election", but I wouldn't for a second suggest we rename all "UK General election" pages to "Westminster election", so it makes sense to title the pages as per the Scotland Act, since its the formal title and what they are all currently titled. MoreofaGlorifiedPond,Really... (talk) 14:49, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Additional Comments/Debate

• Comment We need standard titles, of course we do. I would run a Google check and a news media check on "general election" via "election". My personal preference is "Scottish Parliament general election". doktorb _words^deeds 15:13, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

On (UK) Google:

• Scottish Parliament general election - 437,000 results (0.17 seconds).
• Scottish Parliament election - 25,700,000 results (0.21 seconds).

Shatter Resistance (talk) 16:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Wish to add some aditional points: the definition Wikipedia gives for general election is "an election in which all or most members of a given political body are chosen", ie. as opposed to elections to bodies where members are elected in stagered terms (such a the Czech Senate). Under this definition, the title "Scottish Parliament general election" would still be acceptable. As for the use of Google to settle it, "general election" will inevitably recieve fewer results then "election"...

• United Kinngdom election - 51,100,000
• United Kingdom general election - 17,700,000

... so that isn't the best justification to decide the title. I also disagree with you making the argument that because Barryob supports independence then its biased editing (I would also suggest that the fact you brought this up suggests that you are proposing to change the title purely because of your Unionist alligences...). On the main subject, I support there being continuity between the page titles of the four elections, as I think everyone would. I mildly support the title "Scottish Parliament election" as opposed to "Scottish Parliament general election", but only because I think it sounds slightly better, but I would support the concensus if people decided "Scottish Parliament general election" was better, because neither are wrong MoreofaGlorifiedPond,Really... (talk) 16:53, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree that the election this article is about what is technically a general election, however that does not justify it to be named as a general election if in a particular area the term general election is used to refer to a particular election - in this case the UK general election to the House of Commons. I also reject the idea this is a Unionist/Independence issue and would like to point out I said Barryob was a nationalist (which is not necessarily somebody who supports independence) and that becuase of the stigma attatched to the word general election there may be a POV issue. If the consensus is to have general election then I'm not going to be making any problems I just think for the purpose of clarification the use of the word general is confusing and that the term general election is also unusual. I for one had never heard any election to the Scottish Parliament referred to as a general election.
In addition to this I would also like to point out that the BBC refers to the 2011 election as the Scottish Parliament election (2011) [[1]]. The Scottish Parliaments own website refers to elections as Scottish Parliament elections and contains article such as this [[2]] which refer to the 2007 election and the 2007 Scottish Parliament election.
also as is stated if you wish to vote - either for or against - please place yourself on the (bottom) of the list. Shatter Resistance (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Just thought that I would also provide some other figures about the use of each term on wikipedia by using the 'what links here' tab:

• 2003 election article has links:

• Scottish Parliament general election, 2003 - 33
• Scottish Parliament election, 2003 - 302
• There are also a number of other redirects the majority of which are variations on the capitalisation of Scottish Parliament election, 2003, ie. Scottish Parliamentary election, 2003 and Scottish parliament election, 2003.

• 2007 election article has:

• Scottish Parliament general election, 2003 - 71 (of which the majority are single redirect pages)
• Scottish Parliament election, 2003 - 485
• There are also a number of other redirects the majority of which are variations on the capitalisation of Scottish Parliament election, 2007, ie. ie Scottish Parliamentary election, 2007 and Scottish parliament election, 2007.

Whilst I know that the number of pages directly linked to an article is not a strong argument for changing the name of articles it does help to highlight the fact the change by Barryob was unilateral and that it definetly makes Wikipedia seem untidy. The seeming acceptance of the use of Scottish Parliament election (year) is therefore far more established. Shatter Resistance (talk) 18:51, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

• • FYI it was not me who moved Scottish Parliament general election, 2011 so you are lying. I merely moved to bring the other articles in line with it as it was far more sensible title as per the Scotland Act [3], and please read WP:CIVIL before you make any more acquisition's. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 21:06, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I have never claimed that anyone moved tht 2011 article, I state very clearly that "The 2011 elections was as far as I can tell originally entitled Scottish Parliament general election, 2011" - it is the 2003 and 2007 articles I said you renamed, please read more carefully before you make any more accusations. Shatter Resistance (talk) 06:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

@Mais oui - whilst the scotland act does define the elections as general elections that does not mean it is the term used by anybody in common usage WP:COMMONNAME as I have stated previously the general election definition is very broad and defines the term general election from an international perspective. In the UK it is common practice for general election to only refer to the House of Commons (general) elections.
The governing body of the elections to the Scottish Parliament, the Elecotral Commission also refer to the elections as the Scottish Parliament election (year), see the links [[4]] and [[5]].
Similarly the pollster YouGov refers to the elections as Scottish Parliament elections see the link [[6]].
I believe this probably classifies as common usage. The very fact that you refer to the Act governing the elections in Scotland as the 'Scotland Act 1998' rather than than 'An Act to provide for the establishment of a Scottish Parliament and Administration and other changes in the government of Scotland; to provide for changes in the constitution and functions of certain public authorities; to provide for the variation of the basic rate of income tax in relation to income of Scottish taxpayers in accordance with a resolution of the Scottish Parliament; to amend the law about parliamentary constituencies in Scotland; and for connected purposes' is clear demonstation that when it is more convienient to refer to something (even if otherwise defined by Parliament) in a certain manner that is the method which should be used.
On a side note could evidence that the nominator not be counted in a final tally be provided as I have not come across this convention. Shatter Resistance (talk) 08:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

"... that does not mean it is the term used by anybody in common usage..." -> that is quite simply untrue.

Here is an example of everyday usage of "general election": an (English) bookmaker - Stan James - uses the term 3 times on this page:

"... but following the success of the SNP in the 2011 General Election..."

"... will there actually be a referendum on Scottish Independence before the next Scottish General Election?"

"... Market will be void if referendum does not happen before next Scottish General Election."

--Mais oui! (talk) 09:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok so the use of anybody was perhaps inaccurate. However, I would trust the BBC, Electoral Commission, YouGov, and the Scottish Parliament itself to be more likely to use the term used most often over a betting agent. Shatter Resistance (talk) 09:47, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Elections are general when they apply to the whole parliament. You could have other Scottish parliament elections the same year. So proposal would make article titles less accurate. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

• Comment to nominator If you want this debate to be closed by an external admin, you may want to follow the process at Wikipedia:Requested moves, which will also give it more visibility. You can probably put the above discussion into that request, but you may want to check with an admin to ensure impartiality. Cheers, Zangar (talk) 10:29, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Strong agree - Scottish parliament election should be the title, not including the word general election which is far more associated with the UK national elections. General just is not needed in these article titles. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:09, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

We should be using the title Scottish Parliament general election as general election is how it’s referred to in legislation: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/14/section/4/enacted Ciaran.london (talk) 19:49, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

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