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Talk:2005 French riots/Archive 6

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Accusation of burglary

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The police say that they had been called to a report of a break-in, and were arriving to investigate that. Friends of the boys say that they "were being pursued by police after a false accusation of burglary". The friends claim could only be true if the police had been there for some time, and had already spoken to the youths. As it seems not to be disputed that the police were only just arriving at the scene, the friends second-hand account must be questionable. The two sides of the story are therefore not equally credible.Royalcourtier (talk) 00:47, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Assessment comment

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:2005 French riots/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Seems it was written by a non french, or at least a french out of touch.. To be abjective and unbiased , one should include the fact that 600 cars a month every month were burned before the "supposed" civil unrest ¤¤¤¤ Catweasel 20:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 07:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC). Substituted at 01:05, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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2 or 3 fatalities?

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

One sentence says three fatalities, while another says two. Which is correct? sources?GreyShark (dibra) 12:21, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

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This entry is disgraceful.

Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This is a revolting piece of work, and one which stains everything that Wikipedia is meant to be doing. Nobody at all in France describes these riots as an "Intifada", and nor did Andrew Hussey in his book. I don't seem to be able to edit this horrific lie. Can anybody else? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Calcoform (talk • contribs) 23:10, 8 March 2017 (UTC)


Yes - there are clearly alt-Right propagandists working in this page. Andrew Hussey's book 'The French Intifada' is a right-wing opinion piece, not a factual history book. Moreover it DOES NOT portray the 2005 riots in France as race or religious riots. Vaguely referring to what you think a book says and using it as an unsubstantiated source is neither honest, nor encyclopedic. Contributors to this page should be aware that the French Republic does not compile statistics concerning the religious and ethnic backgrounds of its citizens. Vaguely quoting right-wing writers like Hussey and far-right media outlets like Der Spiegel - which is notorious for regularly lying about immigrants and Muslims - is not acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilsea (talk • contribs) 23:28, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Problems in intro paragraph

Latest comment: 7 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

the introductory paragraph claims (falsely if I am not mistaken) that the riots were perpetrated entirely by North African Arabs, which it then does not source. Additionally, it claims that un named "experts" chalk it up to Islam. First these are major claims and deserve to be sourced, and secondly I question whether enough of the experts actually include radical Islam as a significant motivator, to actually justify putting it in the intro. I'm cleaning this up, if anyone has objection, let me know. Maxkbennett (talk) 22:57, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

There are some sub saharan Africans involved in this riots but not many, the riot started because one Algerian teen was shot to death. its just easy for people to blame someone, and there are lot excuses people can find, but nothing is more than Islam! There are discrimination on the immigrants but not just on Arabs! however have you seen Chinese or Vietnamese start such a violence riots that caused a lot of destructions? the answer is No! there are huge amont of discrimination on Chinese and other Asian people because they don't have the european face which lot Arabs have!

Try actually reading the article by Hussey too. You'll find that your racist and Islamophobic theories are actually denied by Andrew, who is not the alt-Right bigot you make him out to be:

"Even the French intelligence services, the Renseignements Généraux, joined in, producing their own report, which described the riots as a "popular insurrection" and downplayed the role of Islamist groups and the immigrant origins of the rioters. In this way the riots of 2005 were domesticated and made part of a traditionally French form of protest."

Just use you eyes! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilsea (talk • contribs) 01:59, 9 March 2017 (UTC)


Now there are two ways you can solve the problem, to blame the French society or work hard. Those Asian people experienced the discrimination and they started to work extremely hard, they did this by spending more times in school, library and college, start their own small business and lerning foreigh language so they could be more competitive in the labour market, and many are succesful. Now what are those North Africans doing? continue to blame, this is the difference! before you blame something, you should checkout youself first, the French government had provided so much for the north Africans but they don't appreciate, they drop school at an early age and never really work hard on study. Consider the high unemployment of Europe and globalization, its easy to know that soooo many Arabs will be without a job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.49.9.186 (talk) 14:40, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

the vast majority of the rioters were North African Arabs of Algerian,Tunisian and moroccan descent.the French riots were commonly referred to as the French intifada in reference to the palestinian intifada.in both these situations the rioters were Arabs, stone throwing was common and shouts of allah akbar were heard.but politically correct people call the rioters youths.

Hello, I'm a French speaking person who follow French news and I agree with the first comment. You cannot write that these riots are Arabs or African riots. It would be a very controversial title in a French media. Not because of political correctness but because this is simply a wrong fact. First because in France this kind of ethnical statistics are not allowed, so you cannot quote any references to prove it. Secondly, if you take a look at the different trials after the riots you will see the defendants as being White, Black or Arabs. I can provide the different article that prove it after some research (written in French). Medias who talked about the French Intifada were mainly American, especially Fox and other conservative medias. Their objectivity can be put into question. So you need to change your sentence, and highlight that these riots were social because they happened mainly in the Banlieues, an economically poor area of big cities, with a big ethnical diversity. However I agree that in some Banlieues, especially around Paris, there is sometimes an apparent majority of Maghreb's, or West African, or Eastern Europeans… but this is not the first attribute of a Banlieue (and by extend of these riots), this is rather the product of recent waves of immigration. If you want to write about the Race influence or Islam influence, you should do a separate chapter. I think you should take a look at the French wikipedia which is well written: [1] Jheronimus (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Émeutes_de_2005_dans_les_banlieues_françaises

Richard J. Jensen

Latest comment: 7 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Richard J. Jensen: can you have the courtesy to discuss why you consider your vague and thoroughly muddled opinion about one book by Andrew Hussey should be reported as facts on Wikipedia??? Wikipedia is not an alt-Right propaganda site. It is meant to contain facts. Do discuss your issues. Don't just spread lies.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilsea (talk • contribs) 01:35, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
as for courtesy you should not erase material sourced to expert RS. all the text involved is thoroughly sourced to reliable sources. Removing it is vandalism. If you have ALTERNATIVE interpretations please add them and the appropriate RS. Andre Hussey is a prominent academic expert in London: director of the Centre for Post-Colonial Studies at the University of London's School of Advanced Study. -here are some of the reviews his book received [as collected by Amazon]: 1) “A bracing mix of journalism and history . . . [The French Intifada] couldn't be more timely.” ―Mitchell Cohen, The New York Times Book Review; 2) “Uncompromising...brilliant book.” ―Damian Thompson, The Telegraph [ London]; 3) "Hussey makes a strong case that France's contemporary malaise can only be understood in the light of this tragic history.” ―Matthew Campbell, The Sunday Times [London]. 4) "a good introduction to the most sensitive issues of race, religion, citizenship and history that grip modern France.” ―Tony Barber, Financial Times [London]; Rjensen (talk) 01:42, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Andrew Hussey DID NOT claim that the 2005 riots were an "Intifada". This is an absolute fabrication, Richard Jensen. I happen to know Andrew, and he would be disgusted by what you are doing. Even if he had made such a preposterous claim, nobody else did anywhere in France. They way you report opinions as fact is criminal. As for the ridiculous stuff you are writing about the rioters being related to Africans etc: how do you know? You're based in America, you don't live here in France. You have no statistics whatsoever to back this up. You don't know anything about French society. You're just misreading one article by Andrew Hussey, and then quoting a poisonous opinion piece in Der Spiegel - a racist tabloid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilsea (talk • contribs) 01:47, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

In short, Richard Jensen: why not just post FACTS in these kind of pieces, rather than vague opinions that you don't really understand, and can't find an verified facts to substantiate. It's called knowledge. It's what Wikipedia is meant to be about.

You don't have any reliable sources for your claims-- I think it's in your imagination. the New York Times review of Hussey's book says: "France, he believes, is 'under attack' by 'angry and dispossessed heirs' of its past colonial projects. This is the French intifada." Rjensen (talk) 02:15, 9 March 2017 (UTC)


You do not need sources to refute fabricated material. Fabricated material is fabricated material, Rjensen

You can’t even spell Andrew Hussey’s name. You call him Andre (sic) The aim of an Introduction to a Wikipedia article about a set of events is to list facts, not to start trying to interpret what one man (Andrew Hussey) might or might not have thought about those facts. As it is, you have completely misunderstood Andrew’s analysis of the 2005 riots anyway!

Do try reading the Guardian article by Andrew Hussey, rather than just vaguely suggesting what you think he says. Andrew (the author of the French Intifada and a serious, moral, good man, who is based in Paris, and not London, as you erroneously suggest) writes categorically:

"Second, there was broad agreement that the riots had little or nothing to do with Islam or the historical French presence in parts of the Islamic world. Leftist intellectuals, in the pages of Le Monde or Libération, fell over themselves to distance the riots from any connection with the same anger that radicalised Islamists. According to these journalists, the riots were caused by a "fracture sociale" and lack of "justice sociale". Even the French intelligence services, the Renseignements Généraux, joined in, producing their own report, which described the riots as a "popular insurrection" and downplayed the role of Islamist groups and the immigrant origins of the rioters. In this way the riots of 2005 were domesticated and made part of a traditionally French form of protest. There was an almost complete denial that what was happening might be a new form of politics that was a direct challenge to the French state." [1]

References

  1. ^ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/french-intifada-arab-banlieues-fighting-french-state-extract
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