Talk:2009 ATP World Tour

Colors...

I think the question has already been asked several times in several places : should we have a color code for the page, to make an easy distinction between GS, 1000, 500, 250 and team events ?

Here is a proposal, using the colors of Template:2009 ATP World Tour (and merging "week of" when tournaments are in the same week):

Week of	Tournament	Winners	Runners-up	Semifinalists	Quarterfinalists
4 May	Estoril Open Estoril, Portugal ATP 250 Series $ Clay
11 May	Mutua Madrileña Madrid Open Madrid, Spain ATP Masters 1000 $ Clay
	ABN AMRO World Tennis Tournament Rotterdam, The Netherlands ATP 500 Series $ Indoor Hard
18 May	ARAG ATP World Team Championship Düsseldorf, Germany ATP World Team Championship € Clay
25 May 1 June	French Open Paris, France Grand Slam € Clay
		Mixed Doubles:
23 November	ATP World Tour Finals London, United Kingdom Year-end championships $ Indoor Hard

...and by the way, shouldn't we add Davis Cup ? --Oxford St. (talk) 22:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I think we should add the colours...the only problem I can forsee is people assuming that the orange-tint means clay-court, but adding a key should be enough. I'd add the Davis Cup rounds, but keep them blank in the colour, just to signal that they aren't really a part of the Tour. They're of interest, as it often shows why tournaments aren't being played, but the ties aren't administered by the ATP (like the World Team Championship), nor do they contribute towards ATP points (Grand Slams), so to keep them separate. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 22:52, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll do that, with a key - as for the Davis Cup, I think we should have it in the "team events" color of the Template:2009 ATP World Tour, like the World Team Championship. I know it is not administered by the ATP (neither are the Grand Slam events), but for the first time in 2009, there will be points awarded in the Davis Cup - so it's as much a part of the tour as the Grand Slam events.--Oxford St. (talk) 23:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, perhaps not "as much", but I think it deserves a color.--Oxford St. (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've just added Davis Cup rounds (w/ "team events" color), and added in the lead it is not organized by the ATP but by the ITF.--Oxford St. (talk) 03:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

This seems a reasonable solution (the team events colour I hadn't noticed, but it's a good idea). I guess the ATP are trying to get top players to participate. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 18:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The color for the 250 and the 1000 is very very close, hard to see the difference, for red-green color blind people, please change according to wiki colors policy, thanks Yosef1987 (talk) 08:15, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I've changed the lightgreen color (that, by the way, was so bad because it was everywhere and that color extended hurts eyes..) to a light neutral color, a lightgrey, which doesn't damage eyes like the green before, and will give no problems to the red-green blind people. Keita24 (talk) 19:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your time. Yosef1987 (talk) 22:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry, it just took 15 seconds pasting it into notepad, replacing all the green color string to grey color string and pasting back :P.

Btw, In my honest opinion, the colours combination is really bad (even with the grey). The color of the Grand Slams it's just horrible, it doesn't give it the importante it should be (maybe it should be a dark colour with white letters like ATP World Tour Finals?), the purple with white text for the ATP World Tour Finals fits PERFECT, the 1000 Series orange is bad to mix it with another colours, the one for 500 Series is good and the one used on 250 is good but I think they should be WHITE. I would proposal something like this:

Grand Slam Tournaments

ATP World Tour Finals

ATP World Tour Masters 1000

ATP World Tour 500

ATP World Tour 250

Which would really make normal 250 tournaments like exactly that, normal tournaments on the list, the 500 Series a little more importance, the master series the same grey it's used on the players titles list for the same kind of tournaments, the same purple for tour finals that was before, and a dark blue with white letters for the GS which give them a really imporante aspect. What do you think about this? Also I'm changing "GS events" to "GS tournaments", like they're called. Keita24 (talk) 03:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I like it, dead on. Yosef1987 (talk) 13:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but what one did you like? The one before or my proposal? Keita24 (talk) 00:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The proposal. Yosef1987 (talk) 12:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Just an idea, would you try the colors on the official PDF calender of the ATP? Yosef1987 (talk) 12:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW they are fine now...I am not saying they are not. Yosef1987 (talk) 12:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok I'm making a new proposal now, to use the same colours we use for the tennists career finals sections:

Grand Slam tournaments

ATP World Tour Finals

ATP World Tour Masters 1000

ATP World Tour 500

ATP World Tour 250

ATP World Team Championships

They're exactly the same colours, with a very-light green that fits very well on the 500 series (and MAY be added to the tennists career if people wants to, to separate 500 and 250 series!). I don't think the GS and 500s colours make any problem to red-green blind people, so please tell me what do you think. I'm doing a table with those colours and it does look REALLY WELL. (for the davis cup and others, another colours may be used, no problem on this).

The example table would look like this:

Week of	Tournament	Winners	Runners-up	Semifinalists	Quarterfinalists
4 May	Estoril Open Estoril, Portugal ATP 250 Series $ Clay
11 May	ABN AMRO World Tennis Tournament Rotterdam, The Netherlands ATP 500 Series $ Indoor Hard
	Mutua Madrileña Madrid Open Madrid, Spain ATP Masters 1000 $ Clay
25 May 1 June	French Open Paris, France Grand Slam € Clay
		Mixed Doubles:
23 November	ATP World Tour Finals London, United Kingdom ATP World Tour Finals $ Indoor Hard
31 Dec	ARAG ATP World Team Championship Düsseldorf, Germany ATP World Team Championship € Clay

Notice that I used a blue for the World competitions, but it may be changed for another one. Keita24 (talk) 02:15, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

What's tennists? the 250 and the tour finals are very close still, took me a while to notice they are two different colors, that's a light yellow-green?! Another comment it is not very strong colors, all depends on what is tennists :) Yosef1987 (talk) 14:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Obviously with tennists I mean tennis players lol, those colours are the ones used on any atp tennis player career final's table (see for example: Roger Federer's table). The 250 is white (like the rest of the page) and the tour finals is yellow (remarkable), I don't know how why are you having confusion on that... do you have very high parameter of light in your monitor or something? Keita24 (talk) 14:53, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, all the colors are too light, and tour finals is definitely not yellow, yellow is like the yellow color in Germany's flag (in the same table), I'd go for the current version, the colors are clear and well chosen. Yosef1987 (talk) 13:50, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW I am using a laptop, could be the LCD angle to my eyes, it is a new laptop, when I rotated the screen I could the see the finals is indeed light-yellow, should it be put in mind that a lot log on to Wikipedia on laptops? Yosef1987 (talk) 13:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

That is the color appears right when eye level, not when at bottom/top of the screen. Yosef1987 (talk) 17:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I have discussed the proposals with User:Yosef1987 and do not feel that the colours used in the table are strong enough, particularly using white for the numerous 250 Series tournaments. I (along with several others) spent a while creating yearly templates and adding the colour schemes (see below) to the tables.

(the previous colour scheme)

(revised colour scheme) 03md (talk) 22:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I guess no one is seeing this, I like it as I told you before, better than the light colors, go for it I say since there are no complains. Yosef1987 (talk) 23:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Wait, someone changed the colors, still light but better...I cannot find who, no edit summary left...no need to engage in an edit-war, what do you think of the current colors? Yosef1987 (talk) 23:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the ATP 250 Series needs some colour other than white. The current system is alright but I prefer my colour scheme. None of the other yearly articles or templates have been changed to incorporate these new colours so should I just add my colour scheme to this page? I have reverted the colours in the template to show the current colours for individual tournament templates (e.g. ATP World Tour 250 Series tournaments. 03md (talk) 10:13, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Race

Any idea of the points system for the 2009 ATP Race to London????? I couldn't find a thing on the ATP website. Yosef1987 (talk) 16:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Ahhh, they have removed the race. Yosef1987 (talk) 12:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

About the table format

Why does it show the Champions, Runner-ups, Quarterfinals and Semifinals of SINGLES and only Champions and Runner-ups of DOUBLES?

This article is called 2009 ATP World tour, not singles world tour, I think there should be the same info about singles than about doubles. 62.57.212.114 (talk) 19:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

The table would become very crowded, anything prior to the QF's doesn't get added as well for the singles. Yosef1987 (talk) 16:18, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Attention Needed: Points

The ranking points for Nadal are wrong at the beginning of the season, and after Doha they are the same because Doha is non-countable for him (he dropped Chennai points last year for higher tournaments), I dunno if other players' points are wrong as well, any clues? Also check the ATP website. Yosef1987 (talk) 13:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Someone please explain to me why Nadal's points are 13160 at the beginning of 2009 (check the ATP website), not exactly the double of 6675 of last year...last year's Chennai and this year's Doha are not countable for him...I am very confused, there is a 190 difference. Yosef1987 (talk) 12:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, solved it. Yosef1987 (talk) 13:48, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Correct Points Please

Nadal was never 13350, Murray was never 7440, plus many others

Because the x2 wasn't applied to all players, took me a lot of time to figure out what's wrong when I first compared those to the ATP site, before the season started of course

What happened (from this website and some calculations) is "...Again the only thing preventing a straight doubling of points is what falls off the rankings from last year."

Nadal was at the end of 2008 6675, correct? minus 120*2 (Finalist Chennai 2008), add 50 (25*2) for Rotterdam 2008 instead (to get the 5 best of other countables, also later turned out 50 is more than his Doha's 45 points)

So (6675*2)-120+50 is the 13160 starting 2009 as the ATP website, same procedure for Andy Murray because he played in the season openers last year, same for anyone who did

And that's why Doha didn't affect Nadal's points, kept it 13160 after the Doha week

Yosef1987 (talk) 15:58, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I posted this and didn't correct immediately because I want it to be clear, instead of correcting and then some one reverting the correction, shall I correct them when I get time? Anyway I suck at tables here, confuses me, so I'd appreciate some help. Yosef1987 (talk) 16:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you just refer to ATP site and update the scores and ranks on weekly basis as they are updated by ATP? In any case doing calculation on your own isn't a good practice and providing a source for the scores would also be better. This would of course mean that you shouldn't update the scores unless they are updated by ATP. ^LeaveSleaves 16:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I know, I calculated one of them to see what is wrong, I am talking about the beginning of the season, that's where the problem was for some players, as explained above. Yosef1987 (talk) 16:43, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

To be clear about the problem, the season starting points (before playing any tournament) here in Wiki is all wrong for any player who played a season opener in 2008. The x2 wasn't applied to all players. Yosef1987 (talk) 16:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, in that case you can again refer to ATP site and see the ranking history and check how the player earned the points (e.g. Nadal). Now here you should pay attention to when the tournament ended and the players received the points, and not when tournament started. ^LeaveSleaves 16:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I am talking about the season ending/starting points (2008/2009), it is widely thought that the new system simply used a multiplication of 2 for all players, were in fact that's not true, that's where the problem is, so before correcting the points for some players (copy and paste from ATP site), I want it to be clear so no one would think I made a mistake. It gave me a headache to understand how they calculated it for the season beginning, dropping before the openers, and updating the points, in Nadal's case going to Doha and reaching the QF didn't affect his points what so ever, finally understood the mystery behind it. Yosef1987 (talk) 16:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

And oh yeah, the 2008 season ended 5th of Jan 2009, not 29th of Dec, because this year's openers began a week later than last year, so also the date is wrong, it is 5/1 not 29/12. Yosef1987 (talk) 17:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I would say go ahead and change as long as you fix them as the source dictates. Unsourced changes are likely to be reverted. In fact, as a safety measure add a small note at the bottom of the section giving the ranking table at ATP as source for the information, so that it can remain permanently there for future updates. In case you face problems from other editors, direct them to this discussion. But as I said, if you follow the source there shouldn't be any problems. ^LeaveSleaves 17:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Another problem, while correcting the points now, I have found out the order is wrong as well, check here, the section needs re-writing, and we needed to explain in the article about the x2 thing, and remove the old points because it will cause confusion, I do not know how to handle tables, so please if someone would give me a hand, thanks. Yosef1987 (talk) 20:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I have added a note, because those points were never given to the players (for players like Nadal and Murray), only the doubling before entering the season, I guess that's all to do, and if anyone can edit my note with a clearer one maybe. Yosef1987 (talk) 20:19, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Titles won by player and by nation

The singles titles are much more important than the double titles. I know, Bob y Mike Bryan are american and for the english Wikipedia is perfect to praise them, but they in the world are very little famous and Rafael Nadal, Roger Federer and Novak Djokovic are Sport Giants.

I consider funny both tennis, but the singles is more difficult than the doubles, the mind is a hard point to play. This way i think the better is disjoin them or remove the doubles... Jkn LM (talk) 02:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I always undertood single and doubles are different ATP races. There is no reason to put them together apart from sneaking in the US flag in the top of the table. 87.217.163.117 (talk) 09:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Given that players themselves often distinguish between a "singles" or "doubles" player, and that the public perspectives of the games are very different, there should be separate tables. Only quite rarely are there players who enjoy large success in both, so dividing the tables should be easy. Doubles victories for singles players should contribute to their placing but be of least import and only effective in "tie-breakers", and vice versa.

Separating the tables is a must because singles and doubles are different entities and the current table makes it hard to compare the progress of players, please who ever is in charge of the table, comment; my editing skills in tables is weak, thanks. Yosef1987 (talk) 10:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

New awards

New awards for everyone. Yosef1987 (talk) 19:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Addition of US Open Series to Calender

Since the US Open series is a considerable series of events in the United States hard court season, and provides six figure bonuses to the US Open prize money handed out; shouldn't it be added to the calender? But since it stretches across two months(July 20th to August 23rd), I wasn't sure how to place it. We could place it at the end of the New Haven Tournament on August 23rd? What do you think about this? Blocparty22 (talk) 05:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Summaries

User:Dencod16 has added some short summaries yesterday for the months of January, February, March and April, in a way reminiscent of what was done on the 2008 ATP Tour article. It can be a good idea but Dencod16's current summaries are little more than repetition of the results already present in the table. The article is already over 100KB, and adding exhaustive summaries would only make the page bigger - perhaps another article about the season, in prose, and with numerous pictures would be the best option... What do editors think here ?

The summaries need to be deleted because they are full of unsourced commentary about "dominating" and "returning to form", etc. 62.101.84.209 (talk) 20:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Given the lack of valuable and sourced information provided in them, and because of the article length issue raised earlier, I have deleted all summaries. Should someone want to dig them up, and discuss whether or not this page needs such summaries, they can be accessed in this revision. --Don Lope (talk) 14:35, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

ATP prize money leaders

Why was that section removed?

190.16.234.117 (talk) 19:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

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