Talk:2009 Giro d'Italia/GA2

GA Review

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GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

--maclean (talk) 04:59, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Notes

• In the Infobox, the map caption could be more concise and informative. Perhaps: "Overview of the stages; route from Venice to Rome covered by the riders on the bicycle (red) and distances between stages covered by bus or car (green)."

I changed this, and I also added an alt text for the image. --EdgeNavidad (talk) 14:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• "Teams"
  • "Fuji–Servetto, on the other hand, was simply declined an invitation at first,[7]" - the citation does not say they declined, but rather they were not invited.
    • I'm not sure what the problem is. "Not invited" and "were declined an invitation" are synonymous, aren't they? Reference 6 makes it clearer - RCS Sport included 14 ProTour teams in the list. Cofidis, Euskaltel, Française des Jeux and Fuji Servetto all miss out. However the first three of these had already hinted they did not want to ride the Giro, while the weakness of the Fuji team perhaps explains their snub. so would it be better to ditch reference 7? Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
      • You are right. I read that wrong. I missed the "was". --maclean (talk) 06:27, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
  • "The 22 teams who took part in the race were:[9]" - that citation does not list the teams. That ref talks about re-organizing the 10th stage.
    • It used to discuss both. Will fix. Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
• "Race previews"
  • "Andrew Dampf (2009-04-16). "Lance Armstrong confirmed for Giro despite surgery". Yahoo! Sports. Retrieved 2009-04-20." - seems to be a bad link.
  • "It was also noted that three time trials, including the insertion of an unusually long time trial mid-race, might favor a rider such as Leipheimer.[16]" - the citation mentions that there are 3 time trials but doesn't seem to support the rest of the sentence.
• "Stages"
  • "The tenth stage was planned to exactly mimic a stage from the 1949 Giro d'Italia, in homage to the winner of that stage Fausto Coppi, but the race organizers were forced to alter it to cover only the Italian side of the Alps rather than also visit France, as there were concerns over the availability of radio communication in the area.[9]" - the citation does not attribute the stage to an "homage to the winner of that stage Fausto Coppi" + please add " | agency = " to the cite news templates to attribute Reuters.
    • Will add one that does. There's plenty out there. Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
      • The citation added does not support the sentence. -maclean (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
        • Yes it does..? Initially scheduled to take the peloton over five mountain passes in homage to one of the most spectacular day's racing in the Giro's history (stage 17 of the 1949 race from Cuneo to Pinerolo saw Fausto Coppi stage one of the greatest solo breakaways in cycling's history), the stage has had to be redesigned due to a series of landslides. What is the problem? Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 07:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
          • Article: in homage to the winner of that stage (and the 1949 Giro itself) Fausto Coppi
          • Reference: in homage to one of the most spectacular day's racing in the Giro's history --maclean (talk) 15:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
            • I still don't see what the problem is, but I added three more references that support this claim. Hopefully at least one is suitable? Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 06:00, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
              • It is important for Wikipedia to accurately reflect what the references say. The reference previously provided said the Stage was a tribute to an historic day of racing but the WP article said it was in homage to one man generally and the entire 1949 Giro. From the new refs:
              • Refdailypeloton (5/17/2009) - "in homage to one of the most spectacular day's racing in the Giro's history"
              • Refdailypeloton (5/19/2009) - "his year's "Cima Coppi" (highest point in the race), paying tribute to Fausto Coppi's extraordinary solo victory"
              • Reflondoncyclesport - "The 2009 Giro d'Italia paid homage to Fausto Coppi" - Does this reference violate restriction 1 of WP:ELNEVER wrt Sporza Live?
              • Reftelegraph byline - "Luca won stage 10 of the Giro d'Italia as the country's greatest ever cyclist - Fausto Coppi - was remembered on the 60th anniversary of his most famous day in the saddle."
              • Please remember, WP:V says "verifiability, not truth". I can appreciate the difficulty here as these refs are all saying something different about this race is a tribute to something different from the 1949 Giro. In these cases, it is probably best to elaborate, providing context, and attributing the sources directly, like "The dailypeloton wrote whatever was 'in homage to one of the most spectacular day's racing in the Giro's history'[19] as Fausto Coppi was remembered for whateveritwasthatwassoamazingaboutthatday."[20] --maclean (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
• "Race overview"
  • "out-dueled" - is this a cycling term or a euphemism? If it is a euphemism, please select a more literal term.
    • Meh, not a cycling term at all, but not a euphemism either. It is a little slang-y, I suppose. Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
  • "wearer" - is wearer actually used?
    • Used by whom? It is a word. What would you suggest instead? Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
      • I guess it is a word [1]. Sounds weird. --maclean (talk) 06:27, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
  • "Menchov consistently got the better of Di Luca, and with his superior time trialing skills he was able to emerge as Giro champion." - unclear who "he" refers to.
    • Is it? For one, Menchov is already mentioned as Giro champion, and he's also the subject of the sentence. I'm not trying to be difficult here, maybe this is something that makes perfect sense to me but not others since I've been reading this article several times a day for months, but surely you don't want "Menchov consistently got the better of Di Luca, and with Menchov's superior time trialing skills Menchov was able to emerge as Giro champion.", do you? Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
      • If you have to explain it, then it probably is not as clear as you think it is. A danger of reviewing your own work is that, as you have inundated yourself with all the background research, it makes complete sense in your own mind but someone without that advantage stumbles. You don't have to constrain yourselves to re-arranging these exact same words in one sentence: you can elaborate or eliminate something and/or make it 2 or more sentences. -maclean (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
  • "The youth classification was won by Kevin Seeldraeyers, who remained consistent after Thomas Lövkvist, who for a day even led the general classification, lost tremendous time on Stage 16." - one too many "who"s in this sentence makes it difficult to follow.
    • Hmm. Grammatically, its probably simplest to eliminate the subordinate clause after Lövkvist's name, but the fact that Lövkvist led the general classification for a day is interesting and adds additional perspective to his fall. I wouldn't want to chop it into two sentences after Seeldraeyers' name, because then we'd get "...won by Seeldraeyers. Seeldraeyers remained consistent..." and that's even worse than what's there. Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
      • • Good revision? Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 05:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
• "World Rankings points" - which reference can confirm the info in this section?
  • I'll add one. The UCI publishes rankings after each ranking event and (thankfully) archives the old ones. Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
    • I changed the table, per citations pulled from the UCI website. I'm a little unsure if listing every last point earned in the Giro is encyclopedic, but I figure it's easier to subtract than add, so I put them all in. Top ten for rankings is pretty standard. Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 07:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
• After reading 2009 Giro d'Italia, Stage 1 to Stage 11, I think Horrillo's accident and the resulting protest afterwards is extraordinary enough to mention in this article on the race. -maclean (talk) 15:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
• How many riders, total, competed on these 22 teams? Could you add this to the "Teams" section?
  • Each team sent a squad of nine, for 198 all together. Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 05:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion

While the article has some rough patches it is coming together. Please respond to the above notes. I have no problem with the broadness, there are a few question marks on some of the references. These are some well-contructed tables. I considered Wikipedia:Embedded list with respect to this article; I think both "Jersey wearers" and "Other classifications" is best organized as lists. I am also aware of some instability over the last week with 78.13.197.173's edit being reverted — but this seems to be over issues of style rather than anything substaniative. I hope 78.13.197.173 signs up for an account and contributes more in the future. -maclean (talk) 23:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I as well. Do you have an opinion on the repetition of "Giro d'Italia" in the lead, as the IP and I briefly discussed? Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 00:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean by I think both "Jersey wearers" and "Other classifications" is best organized as lists. ? What revisions do you propose? Thanks for reviewing! Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

• • I altered the puncuation above to make it more clear. It is me writing to anybody reviewing this evaluation. Those sections come close to violating GA criteria 1b. I'm saying that I aware the situation but am not going to take any action as I don't think the suggested alternatives would be better in these particular situations. maclean (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you once again for the review. Not that this should have influenced your decision on passage, but I hope you can appreciate that I've been working my tuchus off on this one, and will continue to do so on the stage articles (large-scale revision to both coming in the next few hours). Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 05:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)