Talk:2010 Tonight Show conflict/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: RunningTiger123 (talk · contribs) 01:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi LuK3, this article caught my interest and I've decided to give it a go. It'll take some time to get through everything, but I should be able to finish it over the weekend. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Quick checks:

• Copyvio check shows no major issues; closest matches are attributed quotes.
• Images seem reasonable; the two non-free images (lead image and Kimmel) have solid rationales, and all images include proper alt text and captions.
• The article is stable.

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Lead

• "not participate in the destruction of The Tonight Show" – this quote is never used in the body, and is therefore unattributed.
  • That actually was not the exact quote, see "People of Earth" section. I only quoted the term "destruction". -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• on appearing on television – awkward repetition, maybe try against appearing on television?
  • Changed to "...while after a contractual seven-month ban against appearing on television,...". -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Background

• Note: From here on out, I'll assume Carter's citations are accurate.
• Ref. 3 is okay, but not great. It would be better for a source to directly state NBC was a leader, rather than infer it from charts.
  • I changed the image caption. I think the chart is fairly straightforward in stating NBC/The Tonight Show were number 1 in viewership for most of the 90s and 2000s. If that still is insufficient please let me know and I'll find another reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• which began in 1993. – should be a comma at the end
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• can compete → could compete
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• (for Leno's entire run) – this might be confusing, since it's not immediately clear if this means 2009 or 2014. I'd suggest rewording or just removing it.
  • I specified it was Leno's first stint as host.
• Ref. 13 does not make it clear if Michaels suggested O'Brien for the role.
  • I found a Los Angeles Times article that seems to say Michaels specifically suggested O'Brien as new host. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ref. 14 never mentions a week-to-week contract.
  • There seems to be inconsistencies between the Bill Carter book and other references. Most online sources stated NBC put O'Brien on a 13-week (3 month) contract so I changed it to that. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
• 1:30 am., → 1:30 am,
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Early history

• No need to link Saturday Night Live again
  • Subsequent links removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• For consistency, late night should be late-night when used as an adjective (not a huge issue, just something to consider)
  • Changed a few terms, I will have to go through the entire article but I'll do it section-by-section for now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Swap sentences for better flow: Chernin warned... and Numerous executives...
  • Sentence swapped. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• will stay at NBC → would stay at NBC
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

  • I still see the original wording... maybe it appeared twice? RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:21, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

• as host well after the extension – feels like it's missing a few words, maybe as until well after the extension was signed?
  • Reformatted the sentence based on your section. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

  • Should it say signed instead of sign? Other wordings are fine, but the current one is wrong. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

• Ref. 28 and ref. 38 are the same
  • I removed reference 38, there are enough refs for that quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• he likened his removal → Leno likened his removal
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ref. 43 doesn't align well with article
  • Same with ref. 54
    • Sorry, I'm a little confused regarding this point. Are you saying the physical alignment of the references are causing a problem or is it something in the formatting? -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
      • My mistake, I meant that what the article says doesn't really match what the sources say (the article generally takes the statements too far). RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
        • Thanks for the clarification! I changed the NYT references and reformatted the sentence cited by the Deadline Hollywood reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:50, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• "paradigm shift" – cited source never uses this quote, so shouldn't be a direct quote
  • Removed that term. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Wrong year on ref. 57
  • Fixed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:06, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Ratings

• While Zucker called O'Brien to reiterate that the generational change was expected – following source doesn't mention this
  • I changed that online reference to a Carter ref. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:59, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• by over 2.6 million viewers – it was actually much higher according to the source
  • You're right, it was almost 5 million viewers (Letterman had 7.2 million while O'Brien had 2.4 million), thanks for pointing that out. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• 18.4 million viewers – does not match source
  • Changed to 17.7 million based on reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ref. 84 does not include that direct quote
  • It looks like that quote is in the second paragraph of the source. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• coveted 18–24 demographic should be 18–34
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• local news viewership – clarify that it's on NBC affiliates, not all networks
  • Specified it was NBC affiliate viewership. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Use Law & Order instead of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit
  • Wikilink changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• he will return → he would return
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Conan sidekick → O'Brien sidekick
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Affiliate calls came at an alarming rate, and research analysis revealed... – sentence abruptly transitions from Leno to O'Brien; make the shift clearer
  • I changed it to Affiliate began calling the network to inquire about the show's fate..., perhaps that is a less jarring. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
    • Affiliates should be plural. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:51, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• Unrelated to this specific section: Wherever the first time appears in the article, it would probably be best to add a note that all times are Eastern (or Eastern/Pacific).

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Conflict

• The "Proposed changes" section relies heavily on Carter (the first and third paragraphs are sourced almost entirely to him). This may be WP:UNDUE unless other citations can be added to show why all of these details are relevant. If more sources are not added, the sections should be trimmed.
  • I trimmed some unnecessary sentences to just focus on the Leno meeting. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:28, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• 11:35pm → 11:35 pm for consistency
  • Reformatted. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• lamented his anxiety – weird word choice
  • Changed to ...to share his thoughts regarding the ratings. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• including Los Angeles Times → including the Los Angeles Times
  • Done. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Only link Los Angeles Times and The New York Times at first occurrence (both are linked at least two extra times in the article)
  • Removed subsequent links. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ref. 131 and 132 should use the same citation style as the rest of the article
  • Changed citation style. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Reaction and media coverage

• Ref. 140 doesn't really mention the details it supports
  • Added another reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• reminiscent of the Obama "Hope" poster – that's a bit of a stretch, I'm going to need a pretty clear source for that
  • I changed it to "similar" to the "Hope" poster, I believe the reference I added supports that. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Can't find anything in refs. 152–155 mentioning that Zucker's reputation was damaged (it definitely was, but sources here don't mention it)
  • Add a Variety reference that mentions Zucker's reputation. -- LuK3 (Talk) 20:37, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ref. 157, 171, and 176 should have citation style updated
  • Citation style updated. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ricky Gervais should probably be linked
  • Done.
• Paragraph for ref. 164 is currently inappropriate WP:SYNTH because there is no source connecting the 1992 and 2010 incidents
  • I just removed that paragraph. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
• Leno retained an talent agent, a publicist, and entertainment lawyers – inappropriate synthesis again with the current sources
  • Also: an talent agent → a talent agent
• "raced past the reviled likes..." – this direct quote doesn't quite match the source
  • I switched the quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• Paragraph on Kimmel's response seems incomplete – didn't he criticize Leno more when he appeared on "10 at 10"? That feels like something worth mentioning.
  • I added a wrap-up sentence regarding Kimmel's criticism of Leno with an Entertainment Weekly reference.
• "There's been three hosts..." – unsourced direct quote
  • Added reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• The comedians who came out in defense... – probably should have a source or be cut, especially the latter half of the sentence
  • While it was most likely true, I couldn't find a reliable source to back that up. I removed that sentence. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• 10:00pm → 10:00 pm
  • Done. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• Conan's lead-in → O'Brien's lead-in
  • Done. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
• Don't link NBC Sports and Dick Ebersol again
• despite O'Brien's success... – this part of the sentence isn't mentioned in the source, so it's inappropriate synthesis
  • Last part of that sentence removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Settlement

Sorry for the delay, I'll try to get the rest of the review knocked out ASAP.

• "betrayed" is a direct quote, so it needs a source.
  • Added the NYP article with the direct quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• above standard GE levels – not in source and can easily be removed
  • Removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:43, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• they have done → [they] have done
  • Brackets added. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ref. 216 (Carter) cannot prove that Leno's lead held for much of the rest of his run if it was published in 2010
  • Added another ref. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
    • It's another 2010 source – the source should be from 2014 or later if it discussed information up to 2014. RunningTiger123

(talk) 00:41, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

• • • • Yeah, I added the wrong ref, it should be fixed now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 11:57, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:15, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Impact

• Also Leno's larger staff... – sentence is not supported by source, remove
  • Removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• any effort to mention O'Brien's tenure was whitewashed from company history – overstatement, they simply removed episodes from the internet
  • I reworked that sentence to just mention the removal of reruns. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
    • The sentence's grammar is incorrect and should be fixed. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
      • Sentence fixed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 11:58, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ref. 242 links to the wrong page.
  • Link changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Aftermath

• the show averages → the show averaged
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• US$4 million per episode – source says 2 million
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• No need to link Jeff Gaspin or Rick Ludwin
  • Removed wikilinks. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• The current wording implies both Graboff and Gaspin left in November 2011, but that's not right – the easiest fix is to remove in November 2011.
• Ref. 258 appears to be an unauthorized copy of an episode clip – I would remove it (WP:COPYLINK).
  • Same goes for ref. 260 and ref. 185 (latter is in a different section)
    • I changed the citation style to cite the episodes and broadcast specifically. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• until he announced Jimmy Fallon... – weird wording; maybe use until Jimmy Fallon became the next host of the franchise in February 2014?
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• Less than a month removed from hosting Tonight... – irrelevant paragraph, remove
  • Removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• in addition to appearing on → and later appeared on (current wording implies appearances were on same date)
  • Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ref. 278 doesn't talk about O'Brien or Triumph at all
  • Changed the source. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• In 2017, mention was made of the host in NBC's 90th Anniversary Special – unsourced
  • Ref added. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
• Ref. 281 doesn't mention Leno, as far as I can tell.
  • Ref changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the lengthy review and the delay – overall, it's a really strong article. Once the above comments are resolved, I'll be happy to support promotion. RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the thorough review RunningTiger123. I believe I addressed all of the issues raised above. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

There are a few spots where I replied to your fixes across all sections that still need to be addressed (mostly grammar); otherwise, everything else looks good. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing those out, I believe it should be good now.​ -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:53, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Looks good! Passing shortly. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 21 August 2022 (UTC)