Talk:2012 Aleppo Governorate clashes

Source for Al Bab rebel control?

This article's info box lists the city of Al Bab as being rebel controlled, but there's no source listed. I also couldn't find any sources by searching Google News. Does anyone have a source for this? Evzob (talk) 17:52, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Original name

The original name of the article is "Aleppo protests" (more exact 2011 Aleppo protests, since none have occured through 2012), there apparently was never any discussion on renaming it. I remind wiki policy is WP:DUE over events, and in some cases we can create timelines: Aleppo protests is WP:DUE event, verified by WP:RS, while "Aleppo during... " is a timeline, which is a much lesser priority article. Hence, if needed rename procedure to timeline can be held, but my preference goes with WP guidelines (event article).Greyshark09 (talk) 06:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I´ll copy-paste what I wrote in the describtion.

Which was in place for 6 months without any opposition. Before that its name was 2011 protests, only because it was still 2011, not indicating end of event in 2011. This is by definition a controversial move, so WP:RM applies.

If any of the following situations applies to the requested move, it should be treated as controversial:

• There is an existing article at the target title
• There has been any past debate about the best title for the page
• Someone could reasonably disagree with the move EllsworthSK (talk) 08:36, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, as history shows, you moved the page without any prior discussion before [1] EllsworthSK (talk) 08:40, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I understand you reasonably disagree with the move, however what are your exact arguments it should be a timeline article and not an event article? Are you aware of the policy in regard to creating timelines? Are there any examples of similar events turned into timelines (Libya, Iraq, Yemen?)Greyshark09 (talk) 10:39, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Naturally. I worked on some of those "timelines" (for the lack of better word). Battle of Brega–Ajdabiya road, Battle of the Misrata frontline or 2011 Nafusa Mountains Campaign. All of those campaigns had different phases, sometimes fighting lulled to point of stalemate, yet we (usually) did not create article for each different phase. As for Iraq war, I do not think there is better example thatn Al Anbar Campaign. EllsworthSK (talk) 10:53, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

@EllsworthSK, you just brought examples to WP:EVENT not a timeline. "Battle", "campaign", "protests" describes events, while "Aleppo during 2011-2012 uprising" is just a timeline; hence pls rename it back to "2011 Aleppo protests" per others. Sorry, bad explanation.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:44, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, above mentioned Iraqi example name of the page is Iraq War in Anbar Province, very similar to Aleppo during Syrian uprising (or civil war if move request shall pass) or Syrian Uprising in Aleppo Province. EllsworthSK (talk) 01:40, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Regardless, this discussion is a proof of controversy. Therefore move should be done by proposing it and letting other editors say their opinion as well. EllsworthSK (talk) 01:42, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Ellsworth, let's go technical - indeed you can oppose my move (i did it per WP:SNOWBALL, but SNAWBALL is obsolete in case of WP:RM), and as a WP:GP i agree to make a rename/move on this page.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Rename

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move. Discussion of a split, refocusing, or other more appropriate titles should continue.Cúchullain ^t/c 14:14, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

---

Aleppo during the 2011–2012 Syrian uprising → 2011 Aleppo protests – I propose renaming this page back to "2011 Aleppo protests", relating to the protests in the city of Aleppo and the siege of it in September 2011 (not the entire province). The clashes in 2012 up until the battle of Aleppo can be split into "2012 Aleppo Governorate clashes". The reasoning is that timeline articles like "Aleppo during the 2011-2012 Syrian uprising" are low priority articles, compared with event articles (WP:EVENT like clashes, siege, campaign etc.), and in addition it is highly vague whether the article is on Aleppo-city or the entire province. Greyshark09 (talk) 21:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose rename to 2011 Aleppo protests; Support rename to 2012 Aleppo Governorate clashes Because I think that an article on the protests in 2011 is a bit non-notable, considering the protests in Aleppo in 2011 were highly minimal and not talked much about in the international media compared to the other provinces. What information we have on the protests there were put in the background section. As for the clashes, they started back in January after the start of the suicide bombings. EkoGraf (talk) 00:56, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per arguments presented in the above discussion. On the issue of province/city, content of this article clearly indicates that we are talking about the province. I am not opposed to technical move which will clarify this issue, however splitting articles into two, just so we could have one article for civic involvement and other for military, seems as a WP:CFORK to me. Up till this day, when rebel forces assaulted Aleppo city from south, fighting was concentrated on the outskirts and several key points like Azaaz, border crossing or suburbs are mentioned in this article, what makes it notable. EllsworthSK (talk) 14:11, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
• As a procedural note, if the request fails, the article should be moved to Aleppo in the Syrian Civil War, given the recent move of the parent article. Compare to, for example, Richmond in the American Civil War. --BDD (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

That is a bad example, since Richmond was the capital of the confederates, while Aleppo is so far just one of the battle scenes in Syria. Not mentioning that the article on Richmond is exceptional, there are almost no other examples on city-timelines during wars. It is like 1 timeline to 100 "battles", "sieges", "clashes", "conquests", etc.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per EllsworthSK Jacob102699 (talk) 17:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
• Comment per EkoGraf i support a different title such as clashes or a split in the article. Jacob102699 (talk) 17:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• How about we split the Aftermath section and make it into a seperate article entitled 2012 Aleppo Governorate clashes and rename the protest page "2011 Aleppo protests? Goltak (talk) 19:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

This is the exact proposal - to rename this into "2011 Aleppo protests" and later make a vote on splitting another article, named "2012 Aleppo Governorate clashes".Greyshark09 (talk) 10:57, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Like I commented above. I propose renaming this article to 2012 Aleppo Governorate clashes and what information we have on the protests that were we put in the background section. Because, like I said above I think that an article on the protests in 2011 would be non-notable due to the protests in Aleppo in 2011 being almost non-existent. There is no need to split the article. EkoGraf (talk) 17:08, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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