Talk:2013–14 FC Bayern Munich season

Fixtures and results

Could we please use the "footballbox collapsible template" for the depiction of the matches? We used it in every other season's article and it just looks much better. Furthermore it is considered to be consensus to use this template. Please check the articles of some other European football clubs for confirmation. Thanks in advance! Fischer47392 (talk) 14:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The article must be kept as condense as possible. I'm going to put this article up for Featured article status. The criteria takes issue with length. It also states that Summary style should be used. Summary style takes issue with article size. It says, as "a rule of thumb," that articles over 100 kB "almost certainly should be divided." Last season's article is currently at 182 kB and the prose is not even close to being done. So, to help get this article to featured article status, it should avoid redundancies and be kept condense when possible. Kingjeff (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok, operating on the premise of keeping this article as condense as possible, it does make sense now, at least. I'm still not convinced though, given the rather poor visibility of the type of info boxes, which you used here. I know you put in a lot of work on several club season's articles and I appreciate your efforts. So, as of now, I'm not going to re-edit this back on my own. But I would be delighted, if some of the other regular editors of Bayern Munich season articles will have their say on this issue. Maybe we can get to an agreement on this, because I still think the footballbox collapsible template should be used here. So, does anyone else want to weigh in on this issue? Fischer47392 (talk) 18:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The footballbox collapsible template will probably be the choice template for the knockout rounds for Champions League. Kingjeff (talk) 18:27, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Just want to show you, how the 'fixtures and results' section would look like, if we'd choose the aforementioned template:

User:Fischer47392/sandbox/2013–14 FC Bayern Munich season

Fischer47392 (talk) 09:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

If you are worried about condensing the size, factoring starts into the appearances table like here or here instead of making a separate table saves 7,475 bytes with the values at zero. The information will be in one place and save a reader having to look in two different parts of the article to find how the appearances break down. EddieV2003 (talk) 13:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Previous seasons have used Template:fb lo match for the league. I wouldn't mind seeing it also in the Group Stage section for Champions League. We could possibly go back to the footballbox collapsible template in the "DFB-Pokal" section. The "Other matches" section should absolutely stay as is. As for listing the squad information, there are too many competitions to list in a combined table. So, the question is do we keep the "Squad" section or delete it. Kingjeff (talk) 17:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I like Template:fb lo match also, so using it for CL is a possiblity. For squad info, DOB and birthplace have nothing to do with this season, so I do not see a need to have them. Previous club only relates to new transfers. If a reader wants DOB, birthplace, or previous clubs s/he may click on the player's name and go to his biography. A table like this one should provide all information needed similar to Template:Efs player. The numbers are: starts(subs). This shows the total number of appearances and starts without a need for two tables to do so. EddieV2003 (talk) 23:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok, so, Template:fb lo match for UCL Group Stage and Bundesliga, footballbox collapsible template for DFB-Pokal and UCL Knockout stage and leave "Other matches", "Friendly matches" and "Pre-season cup matches" sections alone? As far as squad information, re-link the players in the squad statistics table, add uniform numbers and country flags to the same table? Kingjeff (talk) 07:24, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

If DFB-Pokal ends as a short run, we can change it back, but I think the changes made will work. EddieV2003 (talk) 15:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Starts

Why do we need a separate table for starts? If we are going to distinguish between total appearances and substitutions in the Appearances and Goals table, why not show it as starts + substitutions? The total number will still be shown and it will save the need for another table. That is how it is done in the two seasons I linked to earlier. 2011–12 and 2010–11 EddieV2003 (talk) 00:38, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I didn't actually revert it back the starts table last time. Starts + substitutions isn't really the best way to show appearances. The best options are just total appearances or total appearances (starts) or total appearances (substitute appearances). The starts (substitution appearances) I think came from the Efs player template. But that template shows it as starts + substitute appearances. But I still think one of my three options are better than starts + substitute appearances. Kingjeff (talk) 16:56, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

2012–13 York City F.C. season, 2007–08 Sunderland A.F.C. season, 2007–08 Bradford City A.F.C. season, 1998–99 Manchester United F.C. season, and 1998–99 Arsenal F.C. season are all rated as good articles and distinguish between starts and substitutions using x(y). I would like to see it as x+y like in the efs template. The only reason we cannot use this template on this article is the number of competitions is not supported by it.EddieV2003 (talk) 18:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

The good article status is based on the whole article, not just one section. Also, the reviewers for those good articles are probably not football supporters. So, they would assume that it was the proper way of handling appearances in a table. I had been interpreting previous season articles as total appearances (substitute appearances), as the heading indicates. Appearances, which is what the heading is, is referring to total appearances, not starts (substitute appearances). Kingjeff (talk) 19:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

The norm across season articles is that if substitutions are shown, they are separated as start (sub). The header of the table only states appearances, it does not state total (except when displaying the sum of all competitions, then it is the total of the appearances for the season). There are two types of appearances start and substitute. A note at the bottom of the table should clarify any misinterpretations such as the one you claim to have made.EddieV2003 (talk) 20:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

A note doesn't necessarily clarify the issue. Last season's article only mentions the "numbers in parenthesis." So, we are left to assume what the numbers outside the parenthesis are. I did add a note at the bottom of this season's article. It clearly states "Appearances = Total appearances (Substitute appearances)." "The norm" doesn't make something correct. Yes, there are two types of appearances. But when the heading just says appearances, it's implying total appearances. The total you are referring to is the total from all competitions. Kingjeff (talk) 21:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

We could change the table to look like example 1 to include starts and substitutions as different sections entirely. We also could include assists, a statistic which disappeared from last season's article, in the table like example 2.EddieV2003 (talk) 02:29, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I do like table 1. But I would like to tweak it a little before a final consensus and see if the tweaks are suitable. Kingjeff (talk) 02:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Both tables look good. Jeff, looking forward to your alterations. JSpsu05 (talk) 16:32, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

My the table, with my additions, is on my user page. All relevant stats are included. Therefore there is no need for any extra tables for total appearances, starts, substitution appearances or goals. Kingjeff (talk) 19:17, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

That looks good to me.EddieV2003 (talk) 20:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Squad appearances section

Can the colors be added again to the players based upon their position (i.e. blue for GK, green for defenders, etc.)? Also, can the player's nationality be added again? I've been trying to configure both, but I'm having trouble.JSpsu05 (talk) 15:52, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we can have the colours over just the names and uniform numbers. Kingjeff (talk) 01:56, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

What is the purpose of the colors? The players are in clearly defined sections based on their position. The colors in competitions quickly identify w/d/l, but a player in a section labeled goalkeepers is clearly a goalkeeper. Nationality is common among season articles, so its inclusion would meet that norm, however I do not see its purpose other than to segregate.EddieV2003 (talk) 02:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it just makes the data easier to view. That's all.JSpsu05 (talk) 15:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Match reports

Should the fb_lo reports show Bayern as the left team and the opponent as the right team for all matches? The score is reported with Bayern goals first and the tables for friendlies/other matches list Bayern as the left team. The switching for away matches is probably from football box templates which show the away team on the right.EddieV2003 (talk) 02:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Last season's article has only the score as Bayern on the left and the opposition on the right. The information to the right of goal difference depended on if Bayern were home and away. Kingjeff (talk) 03:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

That is the way it has been done in the past. Should we change it so that it is consistent with the way that the matches in the friendlies/other matches sections are reported? The order of teams is not needed to show it is an away match since there is a section on the template that displays H for home and A for away. It is something that may be clear to regular editors/readers like I thought the subs part of the appearances table was, but to others who do not read the note that it is Bayern goals first having the stats in the order of the score may be better.EddieV2003 (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The friendly and other matches are fine. There is no need to change anything as far as matches are concerned. If we do change anything, it should be league, DFB–Pokal, and UCL Group Stage matches. Kingjeff (talk) 18:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I am suggesting that we change the league/CL group stage matches to the same order as friendly matches. The footballbox templates for Pokal matches use team position to indicate home/away, so they will remain in that order with the correct information under the team name. The football_lo that is used in league/CL group is what I propose changing. EddieV2003 (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

We can use the same table as the on that the 2013–14 FC Schalke 04 season article. Kingjeff (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Below is what I am suggesting. Bayern will always be the team on the left like in the table in the Schalke article. This change is not a big one and will keep the information in the same order in the different sections.

Match	Date	Ground	Opponent	Score1	Pos.	Pts.	GD	Report
1	9 August	H	Borussia Mönchengladbach	3 – 1	3	3	2	Report Report link Kick off 20:30 CEST Attendance 71,137 Referee Tobias Welz Bayern Munich Borussia Mönchengladbach Robben 12' Mandžukić 16'  83' Alaba 69' (pen.) Dante 40' (o.g.) Kramer  41' Stranzl  54' Álvaro Domínguez  68'
2	17 August	A	Eintracht Frankfurt	1 – 0	2	6	3	Report Report link Kick off 15:30 CEST Attendance 51,500 Referee Peter Gagelmann Bayern Munich Eintracht Frankfurt Mandžukić 13' Dante  55' Aigner  90+2'

Source:
¹Bayern Munich goals come first.
Ground's country's flag and opponent's country's flag shown when from a different country of Bayern Munich.
Pos. = Position in league, Pts. = Points, GD = Goal difference, Ground: H = Home, A = Away, N = Neutral, HR = Home replacement, AR = Away replacement.

For DFB–Pokal and CL Knockout rounds, we could use the following template to help make them more uniform:

Game	Date	Tournament	Round	Ground	Opponent	Score1	Report

Last updated: 5 September 2013
Source:
¹Bayern Munich goals come first.
National flags for Ground and Opponent columns are only shown when different from that of Bayern Munich.
M = Match; Ground: H = Home, A = Away, N = Neutral, HR = Home replacement, AR = Away replacement.
EddieV2003 (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey, one last thing before I go: I think EddieV2003 is right: You should at least use the same template for the depiction of the matches in the article. Uniformity is useful and makes sense. I accept the majority vote and I think the suggested template for the "DFB-Pokal" section should be used. Fischer47392 (talk) 12:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The second template looks like it's more for the "Other matches" section. Or all matches are clumped together in one section. Although that wouldn't work when there is an aggregate score needed. Kingjeff (talk) 19:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Overview of statistics

This is a great section to keep track of overall stats. I updated it, but left out some of the info as I didn't want to list 11 players for many of the categories. As the season progresses and the stats become more clear, we can update the remaining sections.JSpsu05 (talk) 18:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

For single match or two match competitions it is unnecessary. There are 11 players tied for most starts for UEFA Super Cup and 13 tied for most appearances. If this table is included, it should only be for competitions that can not summarize themselves i.e. Bundesliga, CL, and Pokal (depending on the number of rounds played).EddieV2003 (talk) 19:05, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I put "starting line–up" for both super cup matches and put a note of the starting line–up in the notes section. Kingjeff (talk) 19:28, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Squad appearances

As much as I like the current squad appearances table, it's still not suitable for sourcing the information. I believe that, to properly source appearances, we can't have the split of starts and substituted appearances. I am planning to use the player pages at kicker.de to source the appearances for the Bundesliga, DFB–Pokal, and Champions League; match reports for the German Super Cup and UEFA Super Cup; and fifa.com for the FIFA Club World Cup. Kingjeff (talk) 06:28, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Mario Götze has played in 11 Bundesliga games 4 of which were substitutions, 1 DFB-Pokal game with 0 substitutions, and 5 Champions League games with 2 substitutions. How is this not shown in the source? WP:CALC says we can do arithmetic using the information in a source. In the Club World Cup semi-final he started and had one goal. In the final he was subbed on in the 80th minute. Your sources say that this information is available for the players. EddieV2003 (talk) 14:27, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in 2013–14 FC Bayern Munich season

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of 2013–14 FC Bayern Munich season's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "md21":

• From 1990–91 FC Bayern Munich season: "Bayern München – Karlsruher SC Spielanalyse" (in German). kicker. Retrieved 29 September 2013.
• From 2012–13 FC Bayern Munich season: "Chancenloses S04 unterliegt dominantem FCB". kicker (in German). 9 February 2013. Retrieved 3 June 2013.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 09:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in 2013–14 FC Bayern Munich season

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of 2013–14 FC Bayern Munich season's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "md34":

• From 1990–91 FC Bayern Munich season: "Bayern München – Bayer 05 Uerdingen Spielanalyse" (in German). kicker. Retrieved 29 September 2013.
• From 2012–13 FC Bayern Munich season: "FCB gelingt emotionaler Heynckes-Abschied". kicker (in German). 18 May 2013. Retrieved 18 May 2013.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 00:50, 12 May 2014 (UTC)