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Talk:2013 Egyptian coup d'état/Archive 4

< Talk:2013 Egyptian coup d'état
Latest comment: 8 years ago by Zakawer in topic This article's title has barely been altered in years, yet it's still biased.
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Coup or revolution?

Latest comment: 10 years ago39 comments8 people in discussion

The debate about whether it's a coup or not will certainly create a lot of issues in the future and it's already causing headaches to some, including me. If many users are so angered by the name of this article, then why hasn't anyone ever suggested creating an article called Egyptian revolution of 2013 dedicated to the four days of protest from the morning of June 30 till the military announcement on July 3? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 09:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

The current title seems fine. I haven't followed all the details of the latest debates. Is anybody currently challenging the title? Tkuvho (talk) 10:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Actually i wasn't talking about changing the title, i was simply suggesting that a different article dealing with the previous events should be created to solve the issue. Yes, many users have been challenging the title. Just scroll up a bit and you'll know what i'm talking about. I'm sure you'll also find many discussions about it archived like this one. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 14:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Good idea and it have actually been done. Check 2012–13 Egyptian protests --Mohamedhp (talk) 12:08, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
"dedicated to the four days of protest from the morning of June 30 till the military announcement on July 3" --> Please don't make me repeat this one more time and please don't act again like you don't know what i meant. June 30 was the turning point of the events that finally lead to the coup and there's of course a big difference between revolution and protests. For the last time, my aim is to create a separate article in the chain of events of 2012-13 Egyptian protests dealing only with those 4 days, so i need permission (and help) from as many users as possible in order to do this. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 15:54, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
This particular article carefully avoids using the term "revolution" in describing these 4 days of protests. If there was significant coverage of these protests that described them as "revolution" the first order of business would be to make this clear in the present article. Once there are sufficient sources to back this up one could start talking about a separate article on the 4-day "revolution". I am not sufficiently familiar with the sources to tell whether this is doable at this point. Tkuvho (talk) 16:07, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
The article carefully avoids using "revolution" describing al-Sisi's statement not the 4 days of protests. I can get you many sources describing the previous days as a revolution, enough to create a full article out of them, but i won't be doing anything about it in the next few weeks because of other appointments and i would be thankful if you could be understanding of this.
However, this gives more time to other users hopefully joining this discussion and deciding whether this is the best way to end this "coup or revolution" debate.
Personal opinion: I consider what happened back then to be both a revolution AND a coup that followed. One can't simply deny that this was a coup d'état. Not only because of the way Morsi was removed but also because of the crackdown that followed. But this doesn't mean that the huge masses that took to the streets between June 30 and July 3 should be ignored just like that and having them accept by force that their roles in the overthrow of Morsi was only a coup.
Thanks. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 16:32, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
If we have multiple reliable sources describing those events as a "revolution" I don't see any reason not to create a separate article. You can start by listing some of their sources here whenever you are done with your appointments. Tkuvho (talk) 17:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
What the proposed article could look like
Section Links
Introduction To begin with, here are a few articles that call what happened a revolution (meaning there actually WAS a revolution in the process):
The Guardian - Mohamed Morsi ousted in Egypt's second revolution in two years
Der Spiegel - Egypt Struggles With Political Chaos After Second Revolution
Voice of America - Thousands Gather to Celebrate Egypt's 'Second Revolution'
Financial Times - Egypt: The second revolution
Al Monitor - Egypt’s Second Revolution a Blow to Turkey
Background and lead-up to June 30 Any links from 2012–13 Egyptian protests and Tamarod's efforts to fuel the demonstrations on this specific day and how it was pre-planned a long time earlier:
An article that predicts a revolution but no mention of June 30:
Al Monitor - Is a Second Egyptian Revolution on the Way?
Tamarod and June 30 pre-planning:
Daily News Egypt - Reactions vary to Tamarod’s 30 June plans
Al Monitor - Will Egypt Have Its Second Revolution on June 30?
Egypt Independent - Interior Ministry braces for June 30 demonstrations
Egypt Independent - Interior Minister: Police will not suppress 30 June protests
The Huffington Post - Tamarrod: Egyptians Organizing for June 30th
Yahoo News - Fears of violence as Egypt nears June 30 protests
Al Ahram - June 30 Coordinating Committee plans for week-long protests
Reuters - Edgy Egyptians stock up on food, fuel before June 30 protests
Al Ahram - Tamarod launches 30 June Front, proposes post-Morsi roadmap
Foreign Policy - Egypt's countdown to June 30
Timeline of events (June 30 - July 3) Protests analysis:
Al Monitor - Deadly Violence Breaks out in Egypt Ahead of June 30 Protests
Reuters - Millions flood Egypt's streets to demand Mursi quit
The Guardian - Protesters across Egypt call for Mohamed Morsi to go
Business Insider - Sunday Saw 'The Biggest Protest In Egypt's History'
Al Bawaba - Is this the end for Morsi? A breakdown for Egypt's June 30 protest?
Al Arabiya - Analysis of Egypt’s June 30 protests
BBC - Egypt crisis: Mass protests over Morsi grip cities
Storming of MB office:
Al Ahram - Muslim Brotherhood Egyptian HQ stormed and ransacked
The Telegraph - Egypt protesters torch Muslim Brotherhood headquarters in Cairo
Military ultimatum:
Al Ahram - Egyptian military gives 48 hour ultimatum to Brotherhood, political forces
Al Jazeera - Egyptian army issues 48-hour ultimatum
The New York Times - Morsi Defies Egypt Army’s Ultimatum to Bend to Protest
A lot of other stuff can be found..

I hope other users would join the discussion have time to think about it while i'm gone for a while. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks pretty impressive. Without reading the articles it is hard to tell whether they describe the events as a "revolution" or not. Since this seems to be a major point it would be helpful to clarify that. Tkuvho (talk) 10:19, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Just to sample the articles, I looked through the Reuters piece, which does use the term "revolution" in the following phrase: Many demonstrators bellowed their anger at the Brotherhood, which they accuse of hijacking Egypt's revolution and using electoral victories to monopolize power and impose Islamic law. However, here "revolution" refers to overthrowing Mubarak rather than the events of last summer. Tkuvho (talk) 10:23, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes i know which revolution it refers to but like i mentioned, this link would be used as part of the analysis of the protests not in the introduction section in which the links describe the events as a revolution.
Anyway, i won't be doing anything about this in the coming days so if you're interested feel free to help out. Also, we should get the approval of as many other users as we can because this is still a very controversial subject and can be easily considered for deletion following its creation. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 11:13, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
I think we can be WP:BOLD in this case but first this should be raised at a suitable WPproject, though I am not sure which. Tkuvho (talk) 13:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Done. I opened it up at the WikiProject Egypt talk page where i gave them a link to this discussion and explained in brief what the subject is about. Hopefully there will be a good outcome.. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 11:52, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
There were 4 edits there in the past 3 months (including yours) :-) Perhaps there is a WP:Revolution ? Tkuvho (talk) 13:52, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
I try to avoid WikiProjects sometimes because of that. Thought once about suggesting an article to be created on WP Tunisia but i was shocked when i found out how many users were actually there. Unfortunately i can't find any "WP Revolution" or "WP Protest". Should i simply try WP Politics? At least there's some activity there unlike the others.. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:25, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
In the end this talk page may be the appropriate venue for discussing this. What one could do is create a sandbox version of the article and invite editors here to comment. Tkuvho (talk) 08:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Great idea! Did you come, by any chance, across any users who you think might be interested in joining this discussion? The real goal in my opinion is to invite users who might have a different perspective regarding this (whether they oppose or agree with the project but with a different view). I myself can't think of any right now but i'll try my best.
As for the sandbox, i will immediately create it once i'm free of all my real life obligations but right now all i can do is discuss and do small edits but please feel free to start it yourself if you're interested.
Thank you for understanding. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 11:45, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Do consider adding or editing section 3.1 July 2013 (ousting of Morsi) in 2012–13 Egyptian protests to match the new article and good luck.--Mohamedhp (talk) 21:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah this section is just a smaller version or perhaps a kind of "introduction" of the article to-be so there's no need to change it in my opinion. Maybe the new article could be added in "see also" or "main article" hatnotes next to the coup d'état. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 22:01, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Your welcome and agreed. By the way the article here is in fact indicated as being "a part of the 2012–13 Egyptian protests" so maybe same could be done for the new article.--Mohamedhp (talk) 05:00, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Personally, I am tired of discussing that. the word "Coup" carries a strong negative connotation, also it must be used though. also, I oppose creating more than article, I suggest naming it Egyptian Revolution of 2013 just like Egyptian Revolution of 1952 considering the first days, and describing it as "Egyptian Revolution of 2013 ended with a coup.... Amr TarekSay Hello!, 14:14, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Amr: you say that you are "tired of discussing that", but what you are proposing gets us back precisely into the discussion of whether this page should be entitled "revolution" or "coup", which already tired out everybody. User:Fitzcarmalan's proposal was a way of moving forward so as to resolve this. There seems to be plenty of material to cover with regard to those 4 or 5 days which is why I think the proposal is worthwhile. Tkuvho (talk) 16:03, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Theres no reason to create multiple articles about the same event. There is something about the events before, this covers the couple of days into it and there is something after it. It is not a coup AND a revolution as that is OR. There are multiple reliable sources using both separately but NONE using both together. That is, the events of itself mean one thing not both and no sources indicate a revolution and a coup.
Anyways how can it be a revolution and a coup? Logically impossible. Revolution needs institutional/structural changes not the mere removal of a leader that is a coup. Or just a mere resignation (As in Romania and, clearly now, Mubarak's. Just because WP moved the title and locked it in 2011 the second Mubarak resigned and social media picked on it doesn't make it a coup in history.
And anyways other than being a flagrant POVFORK what content would it have that is not on the aforementioned articles.Lihaas (talk) 10:46, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
@Lihaas, you may have misunderstood User:Fitzcarmalan's proposal. There were two separate events: the popular uprising that he proposes to call the revolution of the dates 30.06--03.07, and the coup d'état that followed. Tkuvho (talk) 12:51, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

@Lihaas - To begin with, thanks for considering my request to join the discussion and of course, welcome back.
Actually you did misunderstand my point completely because i was suggesting creating a separate article about the "notable" revolution that preceded this coup. It can't be a coup only neither can it be only a revolution, and of course it can't be both at the same time. But you seem to think that i'm trying to make them appear as correlating events when in fact they were both separate and people didn't start expecting a coup was about to take place until the military ultimatum while the revolution was expected months earlier. I believe the real source of the problem is when we say "It is", pointing out that a single event occurred in the country not two separate ones, rather than saying "There was". When we look back at what happened 10 years from now we will say that in 2013, Egypt experienced a coup d'état, ignoring the fact that perhaps one of the biggest political events in the country's history took place just because a few Wikipedians couldn't agree on solving the issue. So i strongly believe the revolution that occurred between June 30 and July 3 should definitely be recognized and, most importantly, remembered. An article on Wikipedia is the least we can do to accomplish that.. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 22:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with every word. Amr TarekSay Hello!, 22:56, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I am surprised by those who still deny that this is a coup after everything that happened and the oppressive policies of the post-coup government. al-Sisi is going to be a president by an elections of questionable fairness as most of the opposition leaders are now under arrest. 3bdulelah (talk) 16:01, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I guess you should read the discussion before replying? Fitzcarmalan said nothing about changing a coup into revolution. please read first. + Sisi to be president or not we are not here to predict the future. it proves nothing as long as he comes with elections. Amr TarekSay Hello!, 16:33, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Alhamdulillah now we finally came back to Fitzcarmalan logical suggestion. Let's stick to it and make an article for the uprising of 30 June. As said the people who participated in this never knew it is going to be used to cover a coup. So two separate events, purposes and goals = two articles. Let's make it happen.--Mohamedhp (talk) 21:22, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Let's go. Egyptian Revolution of 2013 Amr TarekSay Hello!, 14:19, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
User:Tkuvho - Could you take a look please?
  • The talk page leads to the coup d'état's talk page. Something should be done about this.
  • There are too many causes that lead to the revolution and they won't even fit in the infobox. I suggest removing them and creating a special section for them in the article.
  • Many of those methods were never used. It's just a copy/paste from the 2011 revolution article. No need to mention any methods since there were simply demonstrations and some riots.
  • The storming of the MB headquarters was not a result, it was just part of the timeline. The results section should be the same as the one from the 2012-13 Egyptian protests article in my opinion.
Anyway, i won't start working on the article until Jan 20 when i finish my exams so meanwhile i hope this could be worked on smoothly and without any issues. Thanks. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 10:06, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I just removed duplicated section from here which was transferred word by word to Egyptian Revolution of 2013 --M. Hassan talk here 13:48, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I had a feeling it was copy/pasted. Good job.
Amr, do not repeat this again, please. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 14:15, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

The article should be about the June 30 demonstrations,which was the big event that day.Alhanuty (talk) 18:35, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't only one day, and even this single day alone (June 30) was called a "revolution". Where do you want to keep the discussion? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Could you please stick to this location so we can discuss it? Although the Egyptian Revolution of 2013 talk page is the most appropriate place to discuss since you're proposing a title move and this is NOT the page whose name you want to change. But of course, you still believe we're biased there, so i'm going to comfort you.
  • Alots of of source call it demonstrations ,also the demost rations occurred on one day June 30, the people who biased towards the events call it a revolution,the people against it a conspiracy,but neutral sources call it demonstrations by the opposition,so it would better to go with the neutral sources calling it the June 30 demostration,even other Wikipedia pages call it June 30 demonstrations. And as i see two editors only call it a revolution,both from Egypt fitzcarmalam and amrtarek , while other editors call it demonstrations, and this article was made after 6 months of the events,so I will open it on the coup page,and let's see. ← This was your last entry on Talk:Egyptian Revolution of 2013.
  • Firstly the mass demonstrations where reported on the night of June 30,and lasted for 12 hours,the coup technically began on July 1 after Sisi's announcement threatening to impose a road map on both sides if the crisis isn't resolved,and the coup has occured on July 3,and we have never heard of a revolution that was 12 hours long,so best thing is calling the June 30 demonstrations. ← This was your last entry on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Egypt
Firstly, we can't just disagree with sourced facts under the pretext of NPOV. Not because Mohamed Morsi and his supporters said it was not a "second revolution" means this is the case [1], otherwise THIS would be "unneutral" like you always say. This is not neutrality and it gives us no right to deny something agreed on by millions of people who witnessed the events and to deny the many reliable sources that call it "revolution" too. This revolution didn't last for 12 hours like you claim, it lasted for 4 days and even if it did, it is undeniable a revolution took place no matter how short it was. Even if this "revolution" did last for 12 hours like you say, it doesn't mean you can rely on history all the time since history is being made everyday as we speak and why wouldn't this be the first case (that's of course IF it lasted that long). There was also a war that lasted only 40 minutes → Anglo-Zanzibar War. The coup "technically" began and ended on the night of July 3, while the preparations for this coup that started on July 1 (or maybe even months before) as you say had nothing to do with the eventual move. The people's demand wasn't military involvement, since many people that joined the protests back then are now opposing el-Sisi. It was simply the resignation of Mohamed Morsi.
These are the sources mentioned in the table above:
I hope we can work this out as soon as possible. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

This article reflects the truth so it should be kept and not deleted or merged with any other page. User:qjahid (talk), 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Previous Discussions

Please note these:

They provide many opinions regarding the matter.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 19:39, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Alright, but no one has proposed moving the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état article. The proposal was to create a totally different article that deals with other related events. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:19, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Egyptian Revolution of 2013

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The article Egyptian Revolution of 2013 is nominated for deletion, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Egyptian Revolution of 2013 for discussion.GreyShark (dibra) 19:42, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Yet another neutrality proposal

Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The French word coup, as in coup d'etat, has in this case, a very strong negative connotion against the ouster of ex-president Morsi. I really feel the article should be moved to the article Egyptian Revolution of 2013 with no out-of-quote references to the fucking ouster being a coup.

In my opinion, the ouster and the protests combined together were a revolution. Zakawer (talk) 12:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Oppose → @User:Zakawer - Those are two different events with different reactions (please check the discussion above). Also, the article has to survive deletion first before we can discuss that. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:56, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Accusation of corruption to Brotherhood

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Guys, is there any reliable English source that prove that Brotherhood members had corruption accusations or funding Qaeda ?!!

Discussing here because the article contains wrong and misleading information. Thanks 111.235.66.34 (talk) 07:28, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Requested move to Egypt 2013 Roadmap announcement

Latest comment: 10 years ago48 comments17 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 10:32, 14 June 2014 (UTC)


2013 Egyptian coup d'état → Egypt 2013 Roadmap announcement – I see that it is a more general and neutral name, because as many people said in old talks on this page why they don't see this as a military coup and I won't add much to this except for that the announcement was after a meeting with many public figures in Egypt, the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar Ahmed el-Tayeb, the Coptic Orthodox Pope Tawadros II, opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei, as well as, many of the youth leaders in Egypt, and all of these people participated in this announcement not only the military leaders came to say that Morsi was ousted, neither did the armed forces took this decision by their own but after mass protests for 4 days and after this meeting with the leaders and public figures in Egypt, also this didn't happen suddenly a week before this event, the formal president was told in the national television that he should stop the coming crisis and take actions, but he refused, also two days before this event after millions of people flooded the streets, he was given a warning by the armed forces that he should take actions to o fulfill the people's demands, but this was also in vain, maybe this looks like a military coup for many non-Egyptians just because the armed forces helped in it, however me as most Egyptians see that they didn't took any actions by their own and it wasn't a sudden action and it was after millions flooded the streets, I am not gonna add new links because I think the links added in old sections is enough, I also don't support this to be added to "June 2013 Egyptian protests" because these are two different events, that's why I can say this name would be better and it describes the event quite well.

Some links from old sections:
Daily News Egypt - Reactions vary to Tamarod’s 30 June plans
Al Monitor - Will Egypt Have Its Second Revolution on June 30?
Egypt Independent - Interior Ministry braces for June 30 demonstrations
Egypt Independent - Interior Minister: Police will not suppress 30 June protests
The Huffington Post - Tamarrod: Egyptians Organizing for June 30th
Yahoo News - Fears of violence as Egypt nears June 30 protests
Al Ahram - June 30 Coordinating Committee plans for week-long protests
Reuters - Edgy Egyptians stock up on food, fuel before June 30 protests
Al Ahram - Tamarod launches 30 June Front, proposes post-Morsi roadmap
Foreign Policy - Egypt's countdown to June 30
Al Monitor - Deadly Violence Breaks out in Egypt Ahead of June 30 Protests
Reuters - Millions flood Egypt's streets to demand Mursi quit
The Guardian - Protesters across Egypt call for Mohamed Morsi to go
Business Insider - Sunday Saw 'The Biggest Protest In Egypt's History'
Al Bawaba - Is this the end for Morsi? A breakdown for Egypt's June 30 protest?
Al Arabiya - Analysis of Egypt’s June 30 protests
BBC - Egypt crisis: Mass protests over Morsi grip cities
Al Ahram - Muslim Brotherhood Egyptian HQ stormed and ransacked
The Telegraph - Egypt protesters torch Muslim Brotherhood headquarters in Cairo
Al Ahram - Egyptian military gives 48 hour ultimatum to Brotherhood, political forces
Al Jazeera - Egyptian army issues 48-hour ultimatum
The New York Times - Morsi Defies Egypt Army’s Ultimatum to Bend to Protest
A lot of other stuff can be found.. Minohaha (talk) 01:33, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

  • To many people, a roadmap is a road map is a map that can be bought at gasoline stations. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:27, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose: I agree, this is not about a new "paper GPS". Ousting a legelly elected, albeit impopular, president, cannot be described as a "roadmap announcement". If you want to make an announcement, just make it. It doesn't need involving ousting a president. This appears to me as some kind of white-washing. It won't happen. HandsomeFella (talk) 07:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Strong acceptance: The new article title is not biased and makes all parties in agreement . --41.238.137.65 (talk) 11:52, 7 June 2014 (UTC) Obvious sockpuppet. No need for an SPI conclusion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - is this some sort of joke? Proposed title fails most of basic WP:NAMINGCRITERIA characteristics.--Staberinde (talk) 12:02, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Comment - hey ! can you clarify more, I checked these basics before choosing the title, and I think it fits all the characteristics, actually this title is the title used by most of the Egyptians and the newspapers about this event "the roadmap announcement", and beside it fits more in describing the event. Minohaha(talk) 20:16, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Agreement: A military coup (or a Coup d'etat) is a sudden action taken by a group of major officers secretly plotting it against the ruling regime, But what happened -obviously- that there were millions of protesters in the streets demanding the removal first, Not the military doing such action by itself, Only after seeing the huge demand on the removal of Mursi, Plus the military asked all parties to reach a national consensus before the events took place, So I agree on the new title . --Leon783 (talk) 20:02, 7 June 2014 (UTC) Obvious sockpuppet. No need for an SPI conclusion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Intense agreement I intensely agree to the new title, The country now has its own constitution and freely elected president .--Henry Matthew (talk) 08:23, 8 June 2014 (UTC) Obvious sockpuppet. No need for an SPI conclusion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - This is ridiculous. It's not like Sisi just went on television and announced the country was implementing a new economic policy. The government of the country was forcibly ousted and the military appointed new leadership. The current title is accurate; the proposed title is propaganda. -Kudzu1 (talk) 08:45, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Comment - And FYI, I've opened an SPI over the highly suspicious editing behavior of this movereq's supporters. -Kudzu1 (talk) 09:01, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Comment - By the force of the people not by the force of the army !! and after long discussions with the "Political Elite", and the prove on this is the high turnover in the elections followed the announcement, this announcement which was not made by SISI only as you said, but, participated in it representatives of the people with all of their political direction and affiliations, How can you call this a military coup d'etat !!!, Sorry man this announcement was for achieving the will of people who flooded the streets to say no for the Muslim brotherhoods and for Morsi, and this action of removing Morsi was obvious and wasn't sudden at all !!, and about the investigation this is the only account I use on wiki, so keep the investigation going but actually it looks like "NONSENSE".Minohaha(talk) 20:16, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • That's what are circumstances telling us there, That it wasn't a coup, Because of the resounding results to both the new constitution and Abdel Fattah Elsisi, A standard military coup is followed by military junta ruling the country, And the law states that if there's no president, Neither vice president, Neither prime minister, Then the head of the supreme constitutional court must be an interim president, Mursi didn't get half of Sisi's results, And the 2012 Presidential elections' integrity is a place of question due to millions of poll cards found marked to Mursi in a factory in Cairo, And bribing villages and regions by giving the residents cooking oil and sugar to vote for Mursi, All these didn't happen in the last elections . --41.238.156.252 (talk) 14:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC) Obvious sockpuppet. No need for an SPI conclusion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Not only the army, It was the people who deposed him too, The army just accomplished the revolution demands . --41.238.151.4 (talk) 21:11, 8 June 2014 (UTC) Obvious sockpuppet. No need for an SPI conclusion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Obvious oppose. See the talk page archives; if we wanted to not call it a "coup" we'd use "2013 Egyptian revolution." This article is obviously about the turnover of power, not roadmaps, so it needs to be at "coup" or "revolution" or "revolt" or the like. SnowFire (talk) 17:52, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Comment - The revolution was from 30 of June to the 3rd of July, but the special event that happened in the 3rd of july is the announcement made by the head of the armed forces and participated in it the political elite and youth representatives and the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar Ahmed el-Tayeb, the Coptic Orthodox Pope Tawadros II and the opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei and many others was to announce the future roadmap of the country, which stated the reomve of the current president, and stopping the work with the constitution, and choosing a committee to do the needed changes on the constitution and directly after the vote on the constitution, a new presidential elections and a new Parliament elections should be held and this was called the roadmap. you will find many links up using thus naming and for example here too :
      http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/16313 (Minohaha (talk) 19:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC))
  • Yes. An article on "the removal of the current president" should be called something which reflects that key fact. "Roadmap" does not imply the government was overthrown; "coup" / "revolution" etc. does. SnowFire (talk) 21:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose: It doesn't matter if you hated Morsi or not. It doesn't matter if a lot of people protested against him. A "roadmap announcement" that includes unconstitutionally removing and imprisoning a democratically elected president, is still a coup, no matter how many opposition leaders side with you. (BTW, of course they will side with the military, as they have just offered to remove your biggest opponent and are now intimidating those they don't like. Democratic huh?) When pro-Morsi protesters emerged to counter the coup, the military shot at them. Who knows, maybe more protesters would have emerged to counter the coup? Only they were never allowed to. Afterwards, the Muslim Brotherhood was banned and its leaders were arrested. This is silencing your opposition, it is undemocratic and is a coup. If you really wanted to remove Morsi, you should have impeached him, which is the constitutionally accepted thing to do. It doesn't matter if I liked him or hated him, a coup is still a coup. -- Kndimov (talk) 20:29, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Comment - It is for sure doesn't matter about my own point of view, because for sure there is people with another point of view,but what I am gonna tell you that first of all according to the constitution the MBs have put at that time, and I am saying they have put it because they formed a committee with more than 60% of it from the Muslim brotherhood so the people didn't took any part in making their own new constitution, according to this constitution it was impossible to remove the president even if he violates the law or the constitution, Morsi did this actually more than once, and a very know example to this is that he removed the attorney general, and actually according to the law, no one have the authority to remove an attorney general from his position !!!! A source about that : "http://www.albawaba.com/news/egypt-attorney-general-refuses-steop-down-despite-morsi-decision-446079", this is only a small thing and there is much bigger things, you can search the internet, what the MBs did with the constitutional court or what did they do with the protests in front of the presidental palace !!. Let's move to the second point which you called it shooting the pro-Morsi, Pro-Morsi stayed in rabaas square for 40 successive days, can u tell me about a country in which protests stay in the streets for 40 days !! not that only !! they start after 30 days in kidnapping people and frighting the people in the streets with weapons !! and how did the government dealt with that, I see it with the most professional way and as in any other country, they gave them more than one warning to keep the protest peace away of violence and then after that another warnings and they gonna deal with the protests and at the time of breaking up the demonstration they gave the people time to leave the square and also breaking up the protest was done under the consult of the human rights organizations and according to the law it was done using the proper tools (using Tear gas and so on ...), here is a video about it "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Res1C6lMOx8", please notice the warning and the whistle accourding to the law and allowing the people out and the ambulance everywhere.
      Report of human write watch (Morsi supporters fired first) : http://garbagedumpsterrental.org/news/morsi-supporters-fired-first-at-rabaa-but-police-response-out-of-proportion-nchr/
      MBs were already in presion but they break out of prisons on the 28th of Jan 2011 including morsi and it is being investigated in this now,Source:http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_01_28/Egypts-Morsi-back-on-trial-facing-charges-of-breaking-out-of-prison-7618/
      (Minohaha (talk) 21:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC))
    • Comment - - definition of a coup as I studied it " A coup is a a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government", for this case we are talking about it wasn't sudden but after like 3 warnings, it wasn't violent at all, and it wasn't illegal because by the power of the people and the revolution of more than 20 Million person the Legitimacy of the government have fallen down, and this definition is from international law not my own definition !! A coup is a coup but not every removing of a president is called a coup !! (Minohaha (talk) 21:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC))
      • Disagree: I disagree with your definition above. There are such things as bloodless coups. Secondly, the word suddenly isn't proper. Every coup is planned, they are not spontaneous. The public was aware the army would propose its roadmap, but wasn't necessarily aware that Morsi would be ousted, imprisoned and his followers attacked. (Now there is the true violence of the coup). -- Kndimov (talk) 21:50, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Comment: The coup usually follows military junta ruling the country, But what happened that the head of the supreme constitution court ruled the country, He's civil, Not military. --41.238.151.4 (talk) 22:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC)Obvious sockpuppet. No need for an SPI conclusion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
        • Strongly agree: exactly !! (Minohaha (talk) 23:45, 9 June 2014 (UTC))
          • Strongly disagree: A coup does not have to lead to a military junta. But, if that is the case, then the 2011 Egyptian revolution should be called a coup!!! Because the military took control once Mubarak resigned! In the case of the 2013 coup, both the president and the prime minister were mere figureheads, the army was really ruling the country. Everyone saw through the smokescreen. Finally, 41.238.151.4 is suspected of being a sockpuppet of Minohaha. Please don't use alternate accounts to try and create support for your argument. -- Kndimov (talk) 00:01, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
            • Comment: Please man don't talk as if it is me because really it is not me !! and that is a good point if you are considering this a coup why you are not considering that of 2011 to be a coup ! actually Mubarak himself didn't came on TV to say he was resigned, but his vice and actually in the law of egypt and in the constitution there is a certain way for the president to resign, he can't send his Vice to the TV to say he is resigned, this is not considered as a resign in the law of egypt, plus at that time also the military force came on TV to say that they will stand beside the people and this was before mubarak resign , I see it a similar case !! (Minohaha (talk) 00:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC))
            • I would be in favor of calling the 2011 revolution a coup if Mubarak had been democratically elected and if there was proof he was forced by the military to resign. -- Kndimov (talk) 00:22, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
            • Comment: yes he was democratically elected in 2005, but I am not sure he was forced by the military to resign or not, however any massive protests like these happened in 25th of Jan or that of 30th of June I see as well as many politicians see creates a new Legitimacy and ends the Legitimacy of the elected president specially with a president who was doing with his group crimes like morsi !! and I am not saying nonsense, I have proves on this, By the way a quick question out of topic, what should I do to give evidence that these other accounts are not mine !! or just leave them to investigate and they will make sure of this ? (Minohaha (talk) 00:30, 10 June 2014 (UTC))
  • I just would like to say that you are discussing an issue that is related to Egyptian people, however 99% of Egyptian people can not whisper their opinions. The absence of their voice does not mean that they are not present or that they are agreeing on what is happening in their country. The situation now in Egypt is just like the situation in Nazi Germany, many people have wondered during WW2 W"Why can't we hear any opposing voices from Nazi Germany?". I exactly mean that psy war is on its maximum, there is a huge amount of political detainees (emergency marshal laws like situation), all and i mean all opposing political voices are shut down (perhaps the person that mentioned Mohammed el-Baradeie above should tell us about why he left political work in Egypt as many Egyptians), we also returned to Mubarak era of "manipulation of elections", finally it is obvious that USA & EU and other international politics players are watching to see what is the final situation going to end. It is a coup. If the Army was interfering to take the peoples side, we would have had early elections.--Ashashyou (talk) 07:09, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
    • He left his position as a vice president because he disagreed with some of the decisions followed the announcement by like 3 months, but this doesn't mean he see that this is a coup and if he did see this he wouldn't have participated in it !! and he would have even said this after he left his position but he didn't. Who said elections were manipulated ?? !! actually the elections results were so reasonable and were known even before the elections, can you provide me any single evident about the manipulation of elections ? (other than the video which was proved to be faked),you know how many organization and country supervised the elections ? you wanna tell me that all of these supervisors were fooled ??, even the other candidate admit that Sisi had won the elections and congratulated him about the elections we already had an early elections, do u think we should have the elections the next day after removing the former president, there should have been time to prepare for it, in less than 6 months we had the vote on the constitution and in less than a year the presidential elections , the elections exactly followed the constitution, there wasn't a single decision made which violates the law or the constitution..... (Minohaha (talk) 12:06, 10 June 2014 (UTC))
    • Read this article by Alaa al-Aswani to understand what i mean by "NAZI Egypt" https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=894482030568269&set=a.444062662276877.120084.130459710303842&type=1&fref=nf --Ashashyou (talk) 00:03, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Ok, I agree with it partially, but where is the relation between this and the Nazi of Egypt you are talking about, and actually it is out of the topic we are discussing here, but I would say I blame the media somehow it is not working in a professional way, but this doesn't mean that SiSi is a dictatorship or that there is no opposition in Egypt and that they can't freely express themselves, they are fought by the media OK, but not by the government !! (Minohaha (talk) 12:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC))
  • Oppose per Kndimov and per WP:COMMONNAME. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:04, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Oppose you are coming to say it is an obvious Sockpuppet and how you know that !!, you are just guessing this and you say obvious !! and can you please state your reasons to see the conversation ridiculous and not worth discussing !! if you are opposing to it just say this but it is no need to say it is worthless and it is obvious Sockpuppet when you are not sure of this, that is nonsense !!! and the RM is of a big importance and this title is disputable and you can check links on the archives, there are many supporters on both sides !! (Minohaha (talk) 00:37, 13 June 2014 (UTC))
Give it up, Minohaha. When the admins get around to your case, they'll probably be less inclined to show leniency if you're actively trying to game a move request. I'd suggest you withdraw it before things get worse for you on this website. -Kudzu1 (talk) 00:49, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
No Sir, I am not, it is not me !! (Minohaha (talk) 14:53, 13 June 2014 (UTC))
It was ridiculous from the get-go. Unfortunately, the admins dealing with SPIs seem to be overwhelmed at the moment, so who knows when anyone will get around to dealing with this situation. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - This article is about a coup d'état, not a "Roadmap announcement"... Need I say any more? IJA (talk) 11:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Oppose ya you need to say more, what did you add ??!!, you are just saying so ?, and I say there is NO military coup d'état according to any definition of a coup d'etat took place in Egypt in the 3 of July, do I need to say more ?? if yes, check the sources and the references above !! (Minohaha (talk) 14:53, 13 June 2014 (UTC))
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Was it a coup d'état ??

Latest comment: 10 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

After trying to change the name of this page and failing to do so ,I still don't accept the name of this page, and I see that it is not describing well what happened in Egypt so let's make this new section, In this section everyone can contribute and add all the media he can find about what happened in "July 3rd 2014" in Egypt, and what before and after it, and was it a military coup or what ? so anyone can add beneath in this section what he see about this issue and add links that supports his opinion (There is already many media links in the archive but we can try to get new links), (Minohaha (talk) 22:05, 15 June 2014 (UTC)) :

I see it is a coup :

I don't see it is a coup :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgAhO4QWAOY, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxDvR2PTZm8, (Minohaha (talk) 22:16, 15 June 2014 (UTC))


    • Comment : To all who are saying that this is a coup, WHY DON'T WE SAY THAT THE EGYPTIAN REVOLUTION OF 1952 WAS A COUP D'ETAT ???? It was a coup until it was supported by the people which turned it to a revolution, See the previous days before the road map was announced, IT IS A GENUINE REVOLUTION WHICH WAS STARTED BY THE PEOPLE AND THE ARMY ONLY ACHIEVED ITS DEMANDS !! --CaeserKaiser (talk) 17:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Nobody contests that you can find sources that call it a revolution. If you haven't found sources that call it a coup, though, either you aren't being honest or you haven't looked very hard. To be 100% clear, yes this incident is also called a revolution, but if you want to build support for a move, you need to show that a majority of the reliable sources - news articles, journal articles, etc. - use "revolution" over "coup." Finding specific incidents of people calling it a revolution in interviews doesn't prove anything and will convince no one. I recommend you read the archives in [[2]] and Talk:2013 Egyptian coup d'état/Archive 3 to get a sense of how Wikipedia determines titles. SnowFire (talk) 19:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
@CaeserKaiser , it's double standards. when the western media want to call it a coup they call it a coup when they want to call it a revolution they call it so. actually the revolution of 1952 was even started by the army unlike 2013's. Sinai Horus 〉〉〉 01:46, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Was it just millions?

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Does anybody care?. Today millions, tomorrow billions? Look at this: "Thousands poured into Tahrir Square to celebrate what they are calling Egypt's "Second Revolution", the military's ouster of president Mohamed Morsi, July 7, 2013. (S. Behn/VOA)"]. Take some care on numbers here, please, one year after "second revolution". Or whas it a coup? What a ludicrous question. Greetings, --Anglo-Araneophilus (talk) 23:16, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

A source that doesn't call the revolution a "coup"

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

As I cite directly from Policy Mic, this is the article, "Egypt Military Coup: This Was a Revolution, Not a Coup -- Despite What the American Media Says," by Uchechi Kalu. According to this article, the revolution against the Muslim Brotherhood regime wasn't a "coup," but the first revolution since the Arab Spring. Let me publish her article verbatim:


"Twitter, the newfound joy of my life, taught me a lot during Egypt’s second revolution last weekend. There is just something about knowing news before CNN breaks it. About watching a conflict unfold in real time thousands of miles away and in 140-character briefs. What I learned from Twitter is that Egypt had a revolution, not a coup d’etat. So don’t let the American media convince you otherwise.

The mechanisms that pushed Egypt into protest are not a simple as:

1. Mohamed Morsi was elected

2. Egyptians decided they didn’t like him.

3. The Egyptian military deposed Morsi aka Coup D’Etat!! aka WTF where are the elections??!! aka Egyptians hate democracy [sic]

That word democracy is what has gotten America’s panties in a bunch. In technical terms democracy is casting a vote. It's Congress. It is equal representation and a rarely-changing constitution. And that's how we like to think about the system.

But let's not sugarcoat the mess we live in. Gridlock is the new legislative process. Big Money buys votes. Twenty school children can be massacred in Connecticut and still Congress will refuse to implement stricter gun laws. Yet Americans won't rebel against a government that refuses to govern because democracy — as we practice it — is not reactive. We grumble about corruption and mismanagement and then cast another vote anyway. Complacency has become our civic responsibility.

But the Egyptians decided to actually engage in their political process. During the protests, I sifted through many Egyptian tweeters searching for their opinion. My favorite tweeter, Shoukry (@Shoukrylive), is a musician who tends to tweet and retweet great quotes nonstop. The last day of the protests, these showed up on his feed:

[No picture, this very piece of text in square brackets was written by me, Zakawer!]

You see then, coup d'etat is our word, our version of Eygpt's [sic] events. I spent hours on Shoukry's feed, sometimes moving on to others, but always coming back. And each tweeter said the same thing: The Egyptian people deserve the credit for forcing Morsi out. The Egyptian military only responded to the people's demand for democracy.

What CNN and its counterparts are not explaining is Mohammed Morsi's short, yet vivid presidency. In June 2012, he won the election by a 3% margin. By November, Morsi decreed that he would assume vast judicial powers above any court. (He rescinded the decision after widespread protest.) Unemployment remained high, electricity and fuel shortages rampant. And meanwhile Morsi drafted a constitution that discriminated against religious minorities. The Muslim Brotherhood took Egypt by the reins, attempting to build the theocracy they have always wanted.

The word coup d'etat menializes a beautiful show of human resistance, by deeming it a barbaric seizure of power. Why must only the ballot box legitimize popular opinion? And why must citizens wait years to un-elect the political filth that festers in our legislature?


Tahrir Square, Cairo, Egypt [link removed because it's bit.ly]


Egyptians did what we don't have the guts to do. So modern America, let's not menialize their revolution just because we'll never have ours. This was not a coup d'etat. The people have spoken."

And here is a link: http://mic.com/articles/53085/egypt-military-coup-this-was-a-revolution-not-a-coup-despite-what-the-american-media-says Zakawer (talk) 13:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

A legitimate description of the revolution that's NOT from mainstream media or any propaganda

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

http://www.projectcamelotportal.com/articles-fix/2146-untold-egyptian-revolution-updated Sorry if it may look like the ramblings of a conspiracy theorist, or if it is copyrighted, but it gives you an image of what the real revolution in Egypt is. Zakawer (talk) 09:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:OR. -Kudzu1 (talk) 16:01, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

"Planning" section

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I don't mean to offend the author, just an innocent question. Wondering whether anyone checked the "Planning" section for legitimacy? It presents one unsubstantiated opinion on the issue using only one reference for the entire discussion, and does not back it up with other evidence from sources such as well-known media organisations, expert opinions, government organisations and so on. "The Daily Beast", the source of the reference provided prides itself on "original reporting", and "sharp opinions from big personalities" (quotes from their website 'About Us' section), making one wonder about the ethics of their journalism.

Seeing as the evidence for these claims are unsubstantiated (thus far), it seems pertinent to the legitimacy of this article if someone could present the opposing viewpoint (which does exist in popular opinion), with references of course, or at the very least, substantiate the current information presented with further viable references. If that is not possible, I believe this section should be removed as it undermines the validity of the entire article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.102.82.13 (talk) 09:01, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

If you do a google search you'll see the leaks were reported by many other sources, including The New York Times. -Darouet (talk) 19:09, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

This article's title has barely been altered in years, yet it's still biased.

Latest comment: 8 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Yeah, the title clearly reflects the position of the Muslim Brotherhood regarding the overthrow of Mohamed Morsi. The Brotherhood labeled the overthrow a "coup" before it even happened, but the mainstream media in the Western world (specifically liberal) took that label and thought the Brotherhood was right. Just because the mainstream media called it a "coup" doesn't mean that Wikipedia has to label it as such. Since many Egyptians believe the overthrow was part of a revolution (me included), I am requesting a title change to "2013 Egyptian overthrow." Yeah, I know a similar title has been suggested before, but this title is clearer than the previous one. This title is clearly less biased than the current one, reflecting a clear Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Do you agree? Zakawer (talk) 20:03, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

This same proposal has been rejected three times in the past: here here and here. International media and scholars describe the event as a coup because the military overthrew the elected government of Egypt. So I don't agree with you. -Darouet (talk) 20:31, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Fuck it. I really think the title is too biased, man. I may not agree with 66% of Wikipedians out there, you included, but I think I am right about the POV title. Zakawer (talk) 06:21, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

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