Talk:2014 Montgomery County shootings

Requested move 16 December 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. George Ho (talk) 20:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

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Montgomery County, Pennsylvania shootings → 2014 Pennsylvania shootings – The proposed title is of a former article, now a redirect to this article. Perhaps move the former article to 2014 Pennsylvania shootings/version 2 and then move this article to the proposed title? There is only one notable shooting incident in Pennsylvania, despite how precise a title must be and how many shootings occurred in Pennsylvania. If you truly oppose the proposed title, why not say "move to Montgomery County, Pennsylvania shootings" (with just one comma)? (Hmm... already done.) George Ho (talk) 06:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I have taken out the comma, since that part should be uncontroversial. Better not to wait a week with a substandard title when this week will probably represent the most attention the article ever gets. Dekimasuよ! 06:55, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, taking it out is pretty controversial, too. Mismatched commas around a state are generally frowned upon. Dicklyon (talk) 07:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

That's true when the city and state precede many parts of speech (such as before a verb, in the example you cite). But I don't think that's the case when the city and state are modifying a noun. If it is, there are a lot of articles just in related categories that need to be changed: 2011 Copley Township, Ohio shooting; 2014 Spring, Texas shooting; 2013 South Valley, New Mexico homicide; 2011 Grand Rapids, Michigan mass murder; Crandon, Wisconsin shooting; Lakewood, Washington police officer shooting. I would revert myself for discussion, but that doesn't seem to be an option now because the article is up for AfD. Apologies if I have created an error, but I don't think I have. Dekimasuよ! 17:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the last time this was widely discussed the consensus was to start working on fixing such things. The last proposal to make the closing comma optional in titles was roundly opposed Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_147#RFC: Should it be "optional" as to whether a second comma after a date/place should be included?. Dicklyon (talk) 18:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that discussion, but I have explained my reasoning. The rationale underlying our current idiosyncratic system of writing out almost all U.S. place names with both city and state seems to be that they are commonly understood to be necessary in combination in order to refer to a single, unified entity (Slicklizzard, Alabama is not just "the Slicklizzard in Alabama"–there are no other Slicklizzards–but the compound name used to refer to the location). If you'd like to try cleaning up one category according to that rubric, I have at least created a list for you. There are no examples in those categories with a comma after the state. Dekimasuよ! 19:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose – There have been plenty of other shootings in Pennsylvania this year. We need to be at least somewhat WP:PRECISE. The proposed title would be like calling the Sydney incident "New South Wales hostage crisis". Also, this allows us to keep the year out, which is preferable for a variety of reasons, as it doesn't imply a "year" of "shootings". RGloucester — ☎ 15:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose- This shooting was localized to one county, not all of PA. It feels like something like 2014 Pennsylvania shootings would be a list of every shooting in PA. Benbuff91 14:17, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rename?

It was just learned that some of the victims were stabbed to death and even alongside being shot. Should the article be renamed to fit this fact? Libertarian12111971 (talk) 08:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Change to "attacks" or "massacres"? --George Ho (talk) 11:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Mr Ho, this makes no sense. Just be bold, already. Bureaucracy is a curse. "Massacre" is out of the question. I say leave it alone, as sources still refer to this as a "shooting" or "shootings", or as a "shooting spree". RGloucester — ☎ 19:10, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Um... I am unsure if you are consistent here. Let media call it whatever they want to call it. One teenage boy survived from stab wounds. --George Ho (talk) 19:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter, as WP:UCN applies. We don't need to be dragged into the absurd "Montgomery County, Pennsylvania shootings and stabbing" type of thing. RGloucester — ☎ 20:35, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

What about WP:NCE and WP:POVTITLE? They apply to this article. --George Ho (talk) 21:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Wait, RGloucester and Lukeno94, what if we call it "killings"? --George Ho (talk) 08:54, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 17 December 2014

Montgomery County, Pennsylvania shootings → Montgomery County, Pennsylvania killings – Or Montgomery County, Pennsylvania attacks or Montgomery County, Pennsylvania massacre. According to one user, there have been also stab wounds. "Shootings" describes the shots fired on the victims. Don't worry; I won't propose "2014 Pennsylvania something" this time. If either killings, massacre, or attacks is not appropriate, perhaps another word should describe the deadly shootings and stabbings. What if Crimes of Bradley Stone or Bradley Stone killings would do? He is the only likely suspect; there are no other leads. George Ho (talk) 18:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - This seems rather disruptive. You've not got any proper proposal here, and you're just throwing everything you can think of as a potential title out there straight after your other RM failed. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Lukeno94, I have added RFC on the top of #Rename? section to your pleasure. --George Ho (talk) 19:10, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 9 March 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to 2014 Montgomery County shootings per general agreement below. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  19:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

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Montgomery County, Pennsylvania shootings → Montgomery County shootings – The state is unnecessary disambiguation, and the single comma is a grammar error. Other such articles don't use the state when there is no other article to be confused with. The county doesn't have to be unique, just the notable shooting. Dicklyon (talk) 17:07, 9 March 2019 (UTC)--Relisted. – Ammarpad (talk) 06:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom. But maybe better 2014 Montgomery County shootings? -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:05, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
• Leaning oppose, as there are many counties named Montgomery County, and it is implausible that this is the only one where there has been a multiple shooting. bd2412 T 04:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

  We don't usually disambiguate until we need to, but I would be OK with Necrothesp's suggestion of 2014 Montgomery County shootings, or some other way to avoid the grammatical error, such as Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, shootings, or 2014 shootings in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, or Shootings in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania. Do you have a preference? Dicklyon (talk) 04:17, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.