Talk:2017 UK Independence Party leadership election

/Archive 1

Biased Edit Reversal

Please stop deliberately biased edit reversals which are penalizing a particular candidate, in this case Jane Collins. I have made a few edits updating her list of endorsements, which rely on UKIP Daily as a source. User Bondegezou has reversed this edit on the basis that UKIP Daily is allegedly not a reliable source, but has left all the other multiple references to UKIP Daily in the article and the information which relied on this on the page. I have now deleted this information - either UKIP Daily is a reliable source of endorsements for all candidates, or none of the candidates. I will not argue either way, so long as the treatment is fair and balanced, and this is not what user Bondegezou has done. I have further added information which relies on Twitter feeds, which are used as the sources of much of the information on this page. If you are going to reverse these edits, please ensure that you delete all information on this page which relies on Twitter feeds as a source. Again I don't care either way as long as the candidates are treated equally. Tarian.liber (talk) 16:34, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Bondegezou is one of the good guys, trying to be rational and consistent. He is not part of the problem. Unfortunately, activity on the UKIP Leadership page has attracted the attention of malicious trolls and/or vandals, several from LabLib. The most egregious example is the one who attempted to use his own insulting selection of party colours for the leadership candidates (all of them were from UKIP, and so if any colour was to be shown, it was the wikicolour for UKIP), claiming these colours were drawn from their election material! Anyone with an elementary grasp of physics (Weburbia and I are physicists) or even printing would know that such colour matching is, for technical reasons, sheer nonsense. Delors1991 (talk) 19:13, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

I know that given the political nature of this contest it is natural to be suspicious but I think we should assume that everyone is acting in good faith here. Some editors have joined in recently and they should familiarize themselves with previous discussions here. We discussed endorsements earlier on and agreed that endorsers had to be notable, meaning they would have their own linkable biography page, or be evidently representing a notable organisation. If we relax the rule there will be many more endorsers to add all round. Exceptions have been made for withdrawn candidates. They have been allowed as endorsers because they are obviously part of the story so their endorsement is notable in the context of this article. We agreed to accept twitter sources from the endorsers account which has been done on similar pages in the past. The candidates own account or their campaign account is not independent so it cannot be relied on. If an example is needed of why we should be careful notice that Bown was claimed as an endorser for Collins but then he apparently endorsed Whittle. If anyone disputes any part of this assessment please feel free to argue your case.Weburbia (talk) 20:05, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

UKIP Daily does not appear to be a reliable source. I am in favour of getting rid of all uses of it, and of any information reliant on it as a citation. But it takes time for articles to change, so it's not unusual, Tarian.liber, for a problem to be fixed in one place, while still being left elsewhere in an article. That's not necessarily evidence of biased editing: it's just evidence that articles don't get fixed all at once.

When it comes to Twitter, it depends on who is tweeting what. An individual's own Twitter feed is acceptable as WP:PRIMARY source evidence of their own views. So we shouldn't remove all Twitter citations, but we are careful about those we include.

Weburbia has explained the general position we take that someone's endorsement is only notable if they themselves are notable, generally judged by whether they have a Wikipedia article. Exceptions are made where an endorsement is particularly relevant for other reasons, as with withdrawing candidates making endorsements.

Finally, Tarian.liber, might I suggest you look at WP:AGF. We try to be nice to each other round here: diving in with poorly founded accusations or making demands doesn't help build a spirit of cooperation. Bondegezou (talk) 20:59, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Alan Bown is a current member of the UKIP NEC, UKIP Deputy Treasurer, and the largest ever donor to UKIP. This meets your "representing notable organization" criterion. Roger Bird is a former General Secretary of UKIP. Tomaz Slivnik is a former UKIP NEC member and Patron. In the context of a UKIP Leadership election, these endorsements are considerably more notable than the endorsements of foreign politicians, Tommy Robinsons etc. who are not even connected to the Party. Tarian.liber (talk) 09:12, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The basic approach with respect to endorsements on Wikipedia is that an endorsement is notable if the endorser is notable, and notability is shown by their having their own Wikipedia page. However, that's not a strict rule and I agree that individuals with significant roles within a party may be notable endorsers even though they do not warrant an article of their own. Do you, Tarian.liber, or anyone else have some reliable sources demonstrating that these individuals are as you describe, e.g. that Alan Bown is the party's "largest ever donor"? Bondegezou (talk) 09:22, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

I would also accept that these endorsements are potentially OK but some due diligence is needed. A quick search of twitter suggests that Bown is the political referee of Collins but has endorsed Whittle. We have not accepted Farage's refereeing for Bolton as an endorsement. Is there more to back this up? Weburbia (talk) 09:28, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't understand what a "political referee" is in this context? Bondegezou (talk) 10:15, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Here: http://www.ukip.org/statement_from_alan_bown The page reads as follows "Alan Bown, a major UKIP donor said, "I have given nearly £2 million to UKIP". I believe this is from some time ago and that his donations by now exceed £2 million, but I do not have a link to that available, at least not at the moment. I'm not aware of anyone else who has donated anywhere near that much. I know nothing about Bown endorsing Whittle, I'll check that and the rest and get back. Tarian.liber (talk) 13:34, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

It'd be synthesis to take a statement of Bown's donations and other sources about other donations to determine his local relevance to the article - I think we'd need a reliable source establishing that he was the party's "largest ever donor". Even then I'm not sure I'd agree with including his endorsement, because I think it's really valuable to have clear criteria so that we can avoid tedious "why x but not y" discussions. There are enough endorsements from people who pass WP:GNG that I don't think we need to widen the "franchise" of endorsers, whereas a leadership election for a party with fewer notable figures may benefit from a laxer requirement.

@Bondegezou: My understanding is that a political referee is somebody who writes a reference confirming that a candidate is fit to stand for election. Lots of parties require references as part of their application process for candidates — I assume that UKIP require references to stand for the leadership as they don't restrict leadership candidacy to elected politicians who would be under party scrutiny and have passed through referencing before. Ralbegen (talk) 18:45, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Ralbegen. Bondegezou (talk) 17:31, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Luke Nash-Jones/MBGA News endorsement

Just to make editors aware that edits have been made to this page to try to add an endorsement by Luke Nash-Jones of MBGA News. He has already been deemed non-notable and had an autobiographical article deleted - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Luke_Nash-Jones MBGA News has a negligible audience; it's very unlikely anybody not affiliated with the organisation or with Jones would be trying to add this endorsement to the page. People's Laughter (talk) 22:44, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Geert Wilders' endorsement

Geert Wilders endorsed Anne Marie Waters via his Twitter. This was mentioned previously in the article, but now has been omitted. Please, also include this endorsement in the article. 92.23.180.29 (talk) 11:32, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I'd be happy with a link to the tweet to justify inclusion, but the provided source is questionable. That's why it was removed previously. Ralbegen (talk) 11:55, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Heres the link: 92.23.180.29 (talk) 16:45, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I've changed that in the article now, thanks! Ralbegen (talk) 17:37, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

References