Talk:2020 New York's 22nd congressional district election

I've been scooped!

Before this article was created, I was working on a draft on the same topic. I think User:Capisred saw me making related changes on other articles and was inspired to create an article on this election. I'm glad I'm not the only one interested in this topic. It's unfortunate that they worked to create a starter article and then I came in and wiped it out with what I've been working on. On the other hand it gave me motivation to get what I had been working on over the past month out of my sandbox.

I did add a few things from the existing article, but for the most part the same material was covered, and most of the articles from before were ones I was already citing. I'm looking forward to seeing how this evolves. -Apocheir (talk) 22:51, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• I was inspired to make this article after looking at Wikipedia:WikiProject Requested articles, but I'm super glad that somebody else agreed that this odd election deserved its own article. Thank you so much for linking the article to other articles. Capisred (talk) 23:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 21:20, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that the 2020 New York's 22nd congressional district election had a sticky problem? Source: "The Oneida County Board of Election used sticky notes to mark disputed ballots, and those notes came unstuck from the ballots and attached themselves to other ballots, an incident called "Stickygate" by the media."
  • ALT1:... that the winner of the 2020 New York's 22nd congressional district election wasn't announced until February of 2021? Source: "On February 5, 2021, Justice DelConte ruled that Tenney had won the election by 109 votes, and ordered the state to certify the results immediately."
  • ALT2:... that the 2020 New York's 22nd congressional district election was decided by 109 votes? Source: same as ALT1
  • ALT3:... that the 2020 New York's 22nd congressional district election was decided by 0.03 percent of the vote? Source: Results section + basic math

• Reviewed: Only my 3rd DYK nom (1, 2) so QPQ not required
• Comment: First hook is hookier but ALT1 might draw more people in. "The 2020 New York's 22nd congressional district election" sounds awkward to me: how much am I allowed to tweak the article name?

Created by Apocheir (talk) and Capisred (talk). Nominated by Apocheir (talk) at 23:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Impressive piece of work. No objections whatsoever to the nomination. As for the preferred hook, all are good. ALT0 can be approved easily, as it's somewhat clickbaity but actually true when you look at it - something that DYK needs exactly, even if the Post-It notes were not the main problem. ALT1 is also very good. ALT2 and 3 are supported and interesting but not as interesting as the first two. The choice between ALT0 and ALT1 is to the promoter's discretion. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 21:09, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

To T:DYK/P4

Todo

Improvements I'm meaning to make and would be happy if someone else did them before me:

• The section on errors could be condensed more. On the other hand, the section could use a more diverse set of citations: it's not great that most of them were written by the same two guys at the Post-Standard. WRVO has some articles that could be worked in.
• More information on Price, if reliable sources exist. A few news articles refer to him in passing as a spoiler candidate, but I'd want more evidence before stating that in the article. What would Price voters have done if he wasn't running: vote for one candidate? vote for another? stay home?

-Apocheir (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:2020 New York's 22nd congressional district election/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kavyansh.Singh (talk · contribs) 04:32, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
Nominator: Apocheir (talk · contribs) at 00:18, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Will take a look soon! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 04:32, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Comments

General

• Before starting with the review, any reason for high over-reliance on Post-Standard. It is used in 97 of the 207 citations, almost 50%. I am not doubting the reliability, but when Post-Standard is openly endorsing one of the candidate, I doubt whether it provides what we call "neutral" reporting. I just want to know your views. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Pinging Apocheir – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 08:05, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

    I was not expecting someone to start on this on New Year's Day :)

    I also mentioned the Post-Standard in the article's talk page, and agree that it's not great that two particular writers from the P-S are responsible for so many references. They're particularly overrepresented in the errors section. To be frank, there aren't a lot of good journalistic sources in this region, and (to my knowledge) no other news sources covered the court proceedings as consistently as the P-S. However, I'm less worried about partisan bias in that particular section; if there's one things both parties agree on, it's that the Boards of Elections screwed up.

    One thing that would help would be condensing the errors section somewhat, which I was hoping I could get some advice on. -Apocheir (talk) 20:39, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, I found few WP:HQRS:

• Kraus J. (2022) New York’s 22nd Congressional District: Brindisi V. Tenney: Round Two. In: Foreman S.D., Godwin M.L., Wilson W.C. (eds) The Roads to Congress 2020. Palgrave Macmillan, Cham. DOI: 10.1007/978-3-030-82521-8_7. ISBN: 978-3-030-82521-8.

This is a chapter from the book, The Roads to Congress 2020. Reading the abstract, it appears to me that this has significant coverage on the topic.

• Carson, Jamie L., Hardin, Spencer and Hitefield, Aaron A.. "You're Fired! Donald Trump and the 2020 Congressional Elections" The Forum, vol. 18, no. 4, 2020, pp. 627–650. via – ResearchGate

This has a section "A Nation of Litigation and Unsettled Races", which maybe is useful for some minor addition in the article.

• Kopko, Kyle, "'X' Marks the Spot, Or Does It? An Analysis of Voter Intent Laws and Their Implications for Counting Paper Ballots" (November 29, 2021). South Dakota Law Review, Vol. 66, No. 3, 2021

Has some mention of this election in the end of the article.

Well, some reliable secondary sources (except the news sources) exist. You can access them either through WP:TWL, or request them at WP:REREQ. I am yet not convinced with the sourcing of the article. The Post-Standard is a local newspaper, and reliability has to be judged on case-to-case basis. I can ignore its over-reliance when it is used to cite uncontroversial-facts. But statements like: As it became clear that the next Congress would start with the seat empty, national attention intensified.; Republicans began an aggressive fundraising campaign (emphasis mine); Oneida County's largest error came to light in early January (emphasis mine), etc., which are all cited to Post Standard, do not give me confidence. Otherwise, it is comprehensive and is all-in-all well written. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 05:54, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

That's very helpful, thank you. The chapter in Roads to Congress 2020 titled "The Impact of the COVID-19 Pandemic on the 2020 Elections" will also be useful. Of course it'll take me some time to integrate these new sources into the article.

Sure, take your time. I'll be happy to keep the review open upto 2 weeks, or longer if needed. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:36, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on the As it became clear... sentence a bit? That's not from the P-S, it's just a lead sentence for the paragraph. The following sentence is the one the citation's for. Apocheir (talk) 02:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Which source cites that opinion that national attention intensified? – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:36, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm still working on this, but I want to point out that there are some passages in the Kraus chapter that are suspiciously similar to the content of this Wikipedia article. Hmm...

I may have been unfair in dismissing a few local news sources, specifically WRVO and WSKG. I thought they just published wire articles on this, but they did appear to do at least some original reporting on this topic. I think including them will address the issue with the Post-Standard more than the Kraus chapter, although I'll continue to work that in as well. -Apocheir (talk) 00:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

So either we have copied Kraus (or worse, Kraus has copied us). Can you clarify what is similar? Otherwise, I think you have done an impressive work on incorporating other sources. Though the number of Post Standard citations remain almost same, I think I should give it a full review soon. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

The Kraus paper wasn't published until November last year, while the bulk of the page content was there in August. So we didn't copy Kraus :) Could be a coincidence. -Apocheir (talk) 22:39, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Detailed

• In the 2018 House race in this district — pipe 'the' out of the link.
• Many Trump-aligned Republicans — first mention of a person in the article warrants his full name
• Legislators and activists of all political alignments proposed reforms in response to the events of this election. — Perhaps, "Many legislators" or "Various legislators"
• of R+6 — casual readers might not be familiar with this.
• Brindisi is a resident of Utica, and Tenney lives in New Hartford, a southern suburb of Utica — we were never introduced to these two politicians, thus we cannot identify them by their last name.
• Tenney embraced Trump during her campaign — would "endorse" be a better word?
• both the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and National Republican Congressional Committee — should be "both the Democratic and National Republican Congressional Committee"
• and Politico — italics Politico
• a nationwide blue wave — "a Democratic wave" would better serve casual readers
• With 2 years — spell 'two'
• for the controversy she attracted while in Congress — and what was that controversy?
• her electoral failure in 2018 — "her defeat" would be less wordy
• Due to COVID-19, — "Due to the COVID-19 pandemic,"
• Still, she won handily, by a margin of 19.2% over Phillips. Phillips conceded the next day. — repetition of 'Phillips'
• calling them divisive. — WP:Citation overkill
• of the first impeachment of Donald Trump — "of Trump's first impeachment"
• until February 24th — remove 'th'
• NY state government responses to the pandemic — NY? No need for abbreviation.
• at a virtual — link not required
• The Post-Standard should be italicized in the "Endorsements" sub-section
• "The Post-Standard'" v. Syracuse Post-Standard — consistency needed

TBC – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:11, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I've addressed these comments in changes to the article, although feel free to comment on my changes to the article. -Apocheir (talk) 04:07, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

• and the Tenney campaign $1.9 million — missing 'raised'
• Spending for both candidates was dwarfed by outside spending — do we mean 'drafted'?
• The NRCC spent — what is NRCC? specify
• top 10 — better spell ten
• What is your approach to list "Federal politicians" in the endorsements section? That is, Gingrich is listed before Trump.
• Due to COVID-19 precautions v. The COVID pandemic — COVID or COVID-19? consistency needed in multiple instances
• Trump vocally opposed efforts to expand voting by mail — I know you are referring to Donald Trump, but better write it as "President Trump", as to avoid confusion between Trump or Trump Jr.
• received disinformation robocalls — MOS:SOB
• I think that the "Margin over time" table should not be hided. It is virtually the most interesting part of this election.
• on the 23rd — should be "on November 23"
• "an inspector of the opposite party shall write in ink upon the back of the ballot a memorandum of the ruling and objection." — immediately after the quote
• Then, on December 1 — remove 'Then'
• 11 of those were from — avoid starting a sentence by a quote
• 1,500 of the affidavit ballots were rejected by Oneida County alone — same as above, there are multiple instances of similar issue.
• The recount process was painstaking, examining individual ballots closely — according to whom?
• The Trump family — can link
• "emergency legal defense fund" — immediately after the quote
• while leaving the possibility for the results of the review to be appealed — why emphasis?
• Why are few candidates italicized in "Results" section?
• "Notes" need citations
• This election was widely considered a fiasco — well, it is true, but who considers it a "fiasco"?
• The 2020 United States House of Representatives elections — do we have to specify/mention US?
• The NY-22 seat — spell
• None of the candidates participated in the Electoral College vote count — and none of the candidates could have participated in the Electoral College vote count. They could have participated in just the "joint session of the Congress to ascertain the electoral vote count"
• the federal Department of Justice — why capitalized?
• Specify what is 'DOJ'
• ... and the abolition of the present system of political appointees in favor of permanent civil service positions. — Wikipedia:Citation overkill
• Similar lengthy and painstaking recounts — 'painstaking'? Regardless, why is 2000 United States presidential election in Florida missing? Those 537 votes literally had the power to change the president!

Images

• Few image(s) missing ALT text.

Sources

• "New York Times" should be "The New York Times"
• Few publishers/websites/media outlets like Fox News is linked, rest are not. Be consistent
• Why is "https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-strongest-house-candidates-in-2020-were-mostly-moderate/" a WP:RS?
• Suggesting to archive references.

That is it. Putting on hold. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:40, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

There are a few of these I still need to handle, but some responses so far:

• do we mean 'drafted'? See the wiktionary entry for dwarf, verb sense 2.
• What is your approach to list "Federal politicians" in the endorsements section? Alphabetical order by surname, but I'm willing to change it.

• Suggesting to change it in the order of precedence, and then by surname for places which require multiple entries. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 14:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

• avoid starting a sentence by a quote I think you mean "number" here, not "quote"?

• Yeah. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 14:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

• Why are few candidates italicized in "Results" section? The individual party lines are italicized, and the totals are in regular text (or bold for the winner). Other pages such as 2020 United States House of Representatives elections in New York do the same.
• who considers it a "fiasco"? The cited sources for that sentence use the term "fiasco". If that's not enough I can include synonyms like "debacle" and so on.
• Few publishers/websites/media outlets like Fox News is linked, rest are not. Be consistent Generally I tried to link the first instance of the media source. This is what we generally do for wikilinks in text, but I can't find any guidance about what to do for references.

• No, linking it multiple times is not considered overlinking. See MOS:REFLINK – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 14:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

• Why is "https://fivethirtyeight.com[...]" a WP:RS? See FiveThirtyEight. It’s part of ABC News, which is listed on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources § Sources as generally reliable.
• Suggesting to archive references. I agree, but is there a bot for this? Doing it by hand would take forever.

• Yeah, definitely. Go to "View history" tab > Fix dead links > Check the "Add archives to all non-dead references (Optional)" > click "Analyze" – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 14:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

-Apocheir (talk) 01:33, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm encountering this IABot bug when trying to add archives for references. Purportedly it'll clear up on its own in a couple days. I want to wait for that before I address the MOS:REFLINK issue, in case it overwrites anything. Aside from those two, I believe I've dealt with all comments so far, either by edits or my responses above. If there is anything I have not addressed adequately, let me know. -Apocheir (talk) 03:16, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

I believe I'm now done with the work on the references as well. -Apocheir (talk) 02:16, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

---

Promoting! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 15:12, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

That's good news! Thank you for all of your work on this. -Apocheir (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks to you too for writing on this unusual election! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)