Talk:2020 Sakhir Grand Prix

Racing Point's first win since 2003?

"This was Racing Point's first win since Giancarlo Fisichella's win in the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix, when the team was named Jordan Grand Prix". How are Racing Point and Jordan even considered to be the same team? It's gone through so many transformations since then, and almost none of the key people are the same. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:17, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@Joseph2302: Jordan is considered Racing Point's predessor, although (for once) formula.com doesn't take a stance that contradicts how the record books are written.

There is some continuity, but racing point is a new constructor and legally they aren't the same team (the Force India entry, which used to be the Jordan entry no longer exists, it's not even the same as the Jaguar F1-Red Bull Racing transition, where the entry stayed the same just under a different name). I don't care if this line remains, but if it does it needs to be made clear that it is Racing Point's first win as a constructor (otherwise people will get confused when they visit Racing Point F1 Team and Jordan Grand Prix). But this is probably the most tenuous case of "team's first win since a time when they raced under a different constructor", for the reasons I explained.
SSSB (talk) 10:25, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:NPOV means that we should acknowledge that this is their first Grand Prix win in their current incarnation and their first Grand Prix win in any form since Brazil 2003. Whether this is their first win or their fifth win is entirely a matter of subjective opinion. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 11:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

No, NPOV means that we should specify that legally they aren't the same team as Jordan, but, some sources consider them as the same.

Stating that it is their first win as a constructor has nothing to do with NPOV.

NPOV only comes into it IF we decide to specify it was ALSO the first win as a team (with the NPOV meaning we add the debate about when the TEAM (not constructor) started (in 2018 (de jure) or 1991 (de facto)).
SSSB (talk) 11:45, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you're arguing against my point? Yes, WP:NPOV means that we should specify that this is the first time the Racing Point organisation as it currently exists from a de jure perspective has won a race. However, since the (equally valid if statistically inconvenient) viewpoint exists that from a de facto perspective this is the team's fifth victory and not their first, we should also acknowledge that a previous constructor which many (if not most) people consider to be the same team has won races in the past. Fortunately, this can be easily resolved by simply providing a wikilink from the word "constructor" to the page list of Formula One constructors, where people can find an explanation of the difference in terms, while we can simply say "the team's predecessor Jordan Grand Prix last won a race at the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix". HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:09, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

The phrase "the team's predecessor" is also useful there from a WP:NPOV perspective since we're not actually passing a judgement on whether or not Racing Point and Jordan are the same team or not, just that they have a clear and widely acknowledged connection. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:11, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@HumanBodyPiloter5: NPOV doesn't mean we should acknowledge that this is their first Grand Prix win in their current incarnation and their first Grand Prix win in any form since Brazil 2003. NPOV is for instances where sources disagree. You won't find a source which argues that it isn't their first Grand Prix win in their current incarnation becuase the current iteration is Racing Point, the CONSTRUCTOR. NPOV only comes into it if we discuss Racing Point the TEAM. If we do mention the team I suggest a {{efn}} where we mention that they are only de facto the same team.
SSSB (talk) 12:17, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not really sure how necessary an explanatory footnote would be when, as I just said, simply saying "Jordan are the predecessor of the Racing Point team" already communicates that information without passing judgement about whether or not they are actually the same team. And I don't particularly see sources agreeing about whether or not this is the Racing Point's first win. The Guardian's race report simply says its their first win since 2003 and mentions they were called Jordan at the time. WP:NPOV seems entirely relevant here. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:33, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@HumanBodyPiloter5: Because Racing Point Force India didn't extend use the Force India entry Jordan are the only the predecessors in a defacto sense. For the first constructor win we can use this.
SSSB (talk) 13:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Hence why I edited the article to say it's their "first win as a constructor and as a legal entity." Surely that makes clear that there's a de jure/de facto distinction here and that sources may vary as to which side they fall on. Again, I'm not really arguing against anything you're saying. There's a broader discussion to be had about how we talk about the histories of various different teams, but this isn't the place. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 13:39, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

The article for 2009 Chinese Grand Prix doesn't mention anything about Europe 1999 (the last win for the Stewart/Jaguar/RBR outfit) so it makes no sense to refer to Brazil 2003 here. Spa-Franks (talk) 02:56, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Except multiple reliable sources literally say "this is the team's first win since the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix", so it makes complete sense to mention it. I don't know what sources have to say about the China 2009-Europe 1999 connection, but if there are multiple independent reliable sources making note of it then it probably should be included. Of course, a seventeen year gap between wins is far longer than a nine year gap between wins, so maybe news reports or whoever didn't consider the gap between those two wins for Stewart/Red Bull to be worth noting. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:30, 16 December 2020 (UTC)