Talk:2020 Seanad election

Requested move 5 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move 2020 Irish Seanad election → 2020 Seanad election and 1925 Irish Seanad election → 1925 Seanad election without prejudice against a future move. The current "Irish Seanad" title is inappropriate, as it uses an uncommon mixture of English and Irish, and a number of other articles already uses bare "Seanad". While there was a proposition to use full Seanad Éireann consistent with the main article, it has not gained sufficient traction, but perhaps can be explored at a later date. No such user (talk) 10:53, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

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• 2020 Irish Seanad election → 2020 Seanad election
• 1925 Irish Seanad election → 1925 Seanad election

– per WP:CONCISE. The term "Seanad" unambiguously refers to the upper house of the Oireachtas, because there is no other Irish-speaking country with an upper house. So WP:PRECISE will still be meet after the rename. Note that Seanad redirects to Seanad Éireann. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:46, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as in violation of the fifth point of WP:NCELECT ("For elections to particular bodies or offices, default to the form "Date [adjectival form of country name] Body/Office election"") which the current title meets. Number 57 11:26, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

  @Number 57: note those words default to the form. If you want to modify the guidance to require that the adjectival form of country name, the WP:RFC is thataway ... but unless and until WP:NCELECT is changed, it does not require us to use superfluous adjectives, which is what the default creates in his case. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:45, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• • I'm of the view that this it isn't superfluous - removing 'Irish' fails on recognisability grounds IMO. Number 57 12:08, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
    • @Number 57: Per WP:CRITERIA: Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize. Anyone familiar with the subject area of Irish politics will recognise what the Seanad is. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:46, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• I guess it depends how you define subject area. If it was politics or elections in general, I don't think it is suitable. Number 57 12:50, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• @Number 57: I do not share that assumption of Irish invisibility. But if you insist on some marking of nationality, then the titles should be "YYYY Seanad Éireann election", because "Seanad Éireann" is the actual name in actual use, whereas "Irish Seanad" is a made-uppy term. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:44, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• The only assumption being made here is by you. I would equally oppose a move of (e.g.) 1953 Danish Folketing election on the same basis. Please don't ping me again. Thanks, Number 57 18:38, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

  On the contrary, you make a very clear assumption that the name of the Irish upper house is not recognisable. Please refrain from blaming me for the assumption you state. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:52, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support There is only one Seanad, just as there is only one Senedd, which is why 2021 Senedd election is an acceptably accurate but concise term for the Welsh body. The default of WP:NCELECT makes sense in most cases because there is more than one country which has general, legislative, presidential elections, etc. I'd also note pages such as List of Seanad by-elections and 2021 Seanad by-elections. Each of these titles are clear and unambiguous, where there is only one body to which these could be referring to. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 18:08, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom and per Iveagh Gardens. Spleodrach (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
• Move to 2020 Seanad Éireann election for reasons stated above below, without prejudice against a future move to the proposed title if Seanad Éireann is moved to Seanad. Rublov (talk) 13:56, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

  Per the discussion below, Rublov's demand to include the full title of the main article has no basis in policy, and actually breaches at least 3 of the 5 points of the policy at WP:CRITERIA. It lacks Naturalness, Conciseness, and Consistency with other articles on Seanad elections. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:30, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

  BrownHairedGirl, this is the last time I will respond to you here. I fail to see how Naturalness is breached in any way here, and it is actually your proposal which lacks Consistency with the title of the head article, which is Seanad Éireann. Rublov (talk) 10:45, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

  @Rublov:@Rublov:Naturalness is breached by the addition of a word which is not routinely used in everyday speech., or in the reliable sources which report these elections.

  Your second point restates yet again a bogus claim abut policy that you have made multiple times. WP:CONSISTENT says that The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. The other articles about Seanad elections use the single word Seanad, so WP:CONSISTENT is satisfied. Your repeated claims that WP:CONSISTENT requires an exact match with the head article are simply false. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:32, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Ticks all the boxes of WP:AT, and I really do not see what all the fuss is about. Andrewa (talk) 07:37, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
• Closure requested [1]. See WP:Closure requests#Talk:2020_Irish_Seanad_election#Requested_move_5_June_2021. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - To us english language only readers, the word Seanad means nothing, without the Irish bit. GoodDay (talk) 20:24, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
  • @GoodDay: "Seanad" it is an untranslated proper noun. The term Seanad is used consistently in English-language sources, commonly without the suffix "Éireann". People unfamiliar with the topic will of course not recognise the name, just as they will not recognise proper nouns for any other topic with which they are unfamiliar.
    Note that policy requires us not to choose a name for those who know the topic area: Per WP:CRITERIA: Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:59, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Can't we just call them the "Irish Parliament", made up of the "Irish Senate" & "Irish House of Commons". Ya know, something easier on the eyes. GoodDay (talk) 01:01, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• Comment: As long as the main article is at Seanad Éireann, shouldn't this related article be titled "2020 Seanad Éireann election"? It strikes me as a little unusual to use a different term, whether that be "Irish Seanad" or simply "Seanad". Rublov (talk) 23:06, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

  @Rublov: by that logic, 2020 Irish general election should be renamed to 2020 Dáil Éireann election, and 2019 United Kingdom general election should be renamed to 2019 House of Commons of the United Kingdom election. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:54, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

  BrownHairedGirl, I'm not advocating the position that all articles about elections must have the form "YEAR BODY election", I'm advocating the position that if the title does include the name of the body, it should match the title of the corresponding article. Rublov (talk) 10:39, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

  Thanks for the clarification, @Rublov. But what part of WP:CRITERIA does that proposition derive from? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:15, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

  BrownHairedGirl, WP:CONSISTENT. Rublov (talk) 13:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

  @Rublov:, WP:CONSISTENT says Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles.

  However, to be consistent with other articles relating to the Seanad, the single word "Seanad" should be used.

  There are currently 42 articles whose title includes the word "Seanad":

  • 1925 Irish Seanad election
  • 2014 Seanad by-election
  • 2020 Irish Seanad election
  • 2021 Seanad by-elections
  • Leader of the Seanad
  • List of Seanad by-elections
  • List of addresses to Seanad Éireann
  • List of women in Seanad Éireann
  • Members of the 10th Seanad
  • Members of the 11th Seanad
  • Members of the 12th Seanad
  • Members of the 13th Seanad
  • Members of the 14th Seanad
  • Members of the 15th Seanad
  • Members of the 16th Seanad
  • Members of the 17th Seanad
  • Members of the 18th Seanad
  • Members of the 1922 Seanad
  • Members of the 1925 Seanad
  • Members of the 1928 Seanad
  • Members of the 1931 Seanad
  • Members of the 1934 Seanad
  • Members of the 19th Seanad
  • Members of the 20th Seanad
  • Members of the 21st Seanad
  • Members of the 22nd Seanad
  • Members of the 23rd Seanad
  • Members of the 24th Seanad
  • Members of the 25th Seanad
  • Members of the 26th Seanad
  • Members of the 2nd Seanad
  • Members of the 3rd Seanad
  • Members of the 4th Seanad
  • Members of the 5th Seanad
  • Members of the 6th Seanad
  • Members of the 7th Seanad
  • Members of the 8th Seanad
  • Members of the 9th Seanad
  • Nominated members of Seanad Éireann
  • Seanad Éireann
  • Seanad Éireann (Irish Free State)

  Only 5 of those 42 titles include the phrase "Seanad Éireann" ... so per WP:CONSISTENT, we should follow the 37 titles which just use "Seanad". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:35, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

  BrownHairedGirl, thanks for compiling the list. As I see it, we have 8 groups of related articles here:

  • 1925 Irish Seanad election, 2020 Irish Seanad election (uses "Irish Seanad")
  • 2014 Seanad by-election, 2021 Seanad by-elections, List of Seanad by-elections (uses "Seanad")
  • Leader of the Seanad (uses "Seanad")
  • List of addresses to Seanad Éireann (uses "Seanad Éireann")
  • List of women in Seanad Éireann (uses "Seanad Éireann")
  • Members of the 10th Seanad, Members of the 11th Seanad, etc. for 30 articles total (uses "Seanad")
  • Nominated members of Seanad Éireann (uses "Seanad Éireann")
  • Seanad Éireann, Seanad Éireann (Irish Free State) (uses "Seanad Éireann")

  4 groups use "Seanad Éireann", 3 use "Seanad", and 1 uses "Irish Seanad". I would take that as evidence that there is not currently consensus for whether this legislative body should be referred to as "Seanad" or "Seanad Éireann" in article titles, and the best course of action would be to open an RM at Talk:Seanad Éireann to determine consensus. Rublov (talk) 21:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

  @Rublov: I'm sorry, but that looks to me like a an extraordinary load of sophistry, whose sole purpose is to obscure the simple fact that only 5 of those 42 titles include the phrase "Seanad Éireann".

  Your WP:CONSISTENT claim clearly fails: 37/42 don't use "Seanad Éireann".

  Per WP:PRECISION, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that. You wisely don't even try to make the case that the single word Seanad is ambiguous in English, so you are left with no case.

  You take the view that every title referring to the Seanad must use the full name as used in the head article. WP:CONSISTENT and WP:PRECISION don't support that view, so I have to ask again: what is the policy basis for your view? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:14, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

  BrownHairedGirl, let me be explicit about my chain of reasoning.

  • WP:CONSISTENT requires that this group of related articles uses the same term, be it "Seanad" or "Seanad Éireann" or "Irish Seanad". As far as I can tell, this convention is followed by, e.g., all articles about the United States House of Representatives (though note re: your WP:PRECISION argument that in many cases, United States House, which redirects to United States House of Representatives, would be sufficiently precise).
  • There is not consensus for whether the term should be "Seanad" or "Seanad Éireann".

  Could you clarify which of these points you disagree with? Rublov (talk) 21:22, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

  @Rublov:, taking those points one at a time:

  1. WP:CONSISTENT does not require that all articles relating to an entity use the full name. That's a preference of yours, but it is not supported by policy. The other criteria also apply, and in this case what is proposed is consistent titling of the articles on Seanad elections: matching these two articles to the shorter form used unambiguously in List of Seanad by-elections and 2021 Seanad by-election. You position would either continue he inconsistency with those two, or require a further discussion to add a redundant word to each of those other two titles.
     I am not so familiar with he US Congress articles, but such rigid consistency is not used wrt to the House of Commons of the United Kingdom: see e.g. Virtual House of Commons, Unreformed House of Commons, Chaplain to the Speaker of the House of Commons, House of Commons Information Office. So neither policy nor practice supports your view.
  2. Your second point presumes a requirement to use in all case either the full name or a short form, rather than making decisions about individual articles or sets thereof. That presumption is unsupported by policy. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:01, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

     BrownHairedGirl, by the same token neither policy nor practice supports your view, either. You clearly feel that WP:PRECISION supports the use of "Seanad" rather than "Seanad Éireann", and in fact I might even agree with you, but the proper place for that determination is at Talk:Seanad Éireann and not here. In the meantime you have not presented a convincing argument why we ought not to use the title of the head article here. Rublov (talk) 22:49, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

     @Rublov: again, I feel that you are playing a game, in this case of trying to misrepresent me.

     You have been repeatedly asserting that policy and practice requires use of the full name, and I have demonstrated both claims to be false.

     I have made no such absolutist claim. so your claim about my view is dismissing a straw man of your invention.

     On the contrary, I have repeatedly shown that like many article titles, these are a matter of balancing the various components of WP:CRITERIA. You appear determined to assert that policy must require some outcome, but that is expressly not now WP:CRITERIA works: the policy says "These should be seen as goals, not as rules". So your whole effort to approach this as hard rules is fundamentally misconceived.

     As stated several times, the reason for not using the full name "Seanad Éireann" here is that the short form meet all 5 criteria of Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Conciseness, Consistency.

     Your preference for robotically repeating the full name fails 3 of of 5 criteria: Naturalness, Conciseness, and Consistency. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:26, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

     BrownHairedGirl, I suspect that further discussion here is not going to be productive. We disagree. That's fine. Let's see what other editors think. Rublov (talk) 10:38, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I just wish for us english only readers, we'd keep using Irish, Welsh etc etc, in front of such legislature articles. Seanad on its own, doesn't tells us which country. GoodDay (talk) 20:22, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

@GoodDay:: see WP:CRITERIA, under recognisability. Policy requires us to name articles for the benefit of those who know the topic area.

By your logic, Grande école would renamed to French Grande école. If we started down that path, we could rename hundreds of thousands of articles ... but it would require a policy change. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:06, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

A "Grand School". GoodDay (talk) 01:08, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.