Talk:2020 United States presidential election in New York

NY County image is outdated

NY is taking extremely long to count votes this election. Therefore, the image of NY's counties is outdated. Places like Nassau have flipped blue and others have narrowed up. Please fix this as more votes are being counted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.27.17.24 (talk) 19:06, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. I think we should remove the map until all the votes are counted. User:Thegayfrenchbullie123 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:34, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

"Red Mirage"

I don't see why we should use the term "red mirage" when there are more value-neutral and equally descriptive ways of describing that Trump had an illusory advantage due to in-person votes being counted first and that Biden's totals would increase once all of the votes were properly counted. This would also be obviated by stating the simple facts with no decoration (it seemed like Trump was doing better than he actually was because in-person votes were counted first) then saying that this effect was dubbed a "red mirage" by some in the media.

Ontario County Results

Hello, Ontario County's official posted results indicate that Joe Biden actually narrowly won the county with 28,865 compared to Trump's 28,826 (a margin of 41). See here: http://www.co.ontario.ny.us/DocumentCenter/View/26499/Results-per-ED-2020-PDF?bidId=

Please update the map to reflect this -- unfortunately, I myself do not know how to do this!

Thanks so much, aidansi384 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aidansi384 (talk • contribs) 22:05, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

The claim above conflicts with the results certified by the New York State Board of Elections, cited in the results tables in this article and in 2020 United States presidential election, which show Trump ahead in this county by 14 votes. --Spiffy sperry (talk) 01:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

You are 100% correct Biden won the county user Spiffy Sperry is incorrect as the results certified by the New York State Board of Elections include an Ontario County win in the final total. The state site hasn't been updated accurately compared to the acutal election administrator the counties website. New York is famous for it's poor election administration and lack of pertinent info, so the actual election administrator's info must be published. http://www.co.ontario.ny.us/DocumentCenter/View/26499/Results-per-ED-2020-PDF?bidId= — Preceding unsigned comment added by Singh117 (talk • contribs) 16:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

There should be a call by one of Wikipedia's editors to the New York State election board, to ask who won Ontario County as there is a dispute on the websites and we don't know whether it was Biden+39 or Trump +14 in the final tally for certain, Biden+39 seems more likely as this is a full count of all votes, albeit Trump+14 is possible if the votes were thrown out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Singh117 (talk • contribs) 16:52, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Singh117, you need to provide a source for your claim that "New York is famous for it's poor election administration" and your contention that the county's information should supersede the state's certified information. The state's numbers are higher than the county's, so it is incoherent for the state's numbers being different due to votes being thrown out.--Spiffy sperry (talk) 17:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Spiffy sperry These aren't correct assertions, look at the two elections this year held during the COVID-19 pandemic, New York took a month to count all of it's votes even compared to other late counting states like California, New York does not count it's absentee ballots as received and only counts them after November 3rd. This is basic knowledge if you follow elections. The county vote is greater than that of the state vote in total number, and throwing out inaccurate links doesn't change the fact. The ONLY way to resolve this is to directly call the NY state election board. Edit: Here is a better link explaining the situation statewide. https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/politics/new-york-state/what-can-lawmakers-do-about-nys-maddeningly-slow-vote-count.html

There were multiple articles decrying NY state's delays and slow counting masked by the fact that NY isn't a battleground state, in addition to the still unresolved NY-22 debacle.

Look at the Ontario County results they are dated 12/08, they were most certainly included in the state's final count pending confirmation by actual election officials, your data is older. https://www.co.ontario.ny.us/DocumentCenter/View/26500/2020-Official-Election-Results-PDF

Singh117, I do not agree that the county's information should supersede the state agency's certified information. The state agency is the controlling authority here. The date of the competing data sets is irrelevant. Until the state agency publishes a revision, the state's certified total is what is reflected in the results table at 2020 United States presidential election and on the map in this article (and also on Dave Leip's website, for what it's worth). And you are incorrect regarding which total is greater; the county's vote totals are less than the state's vote totals for the county. The county shows 28,865 for Biden and 28,826 for Trump, while the state shows 29,025 for Biden and 29,039 for Trump. I won't speculate why the results differ. At this point, it is your unsupported assertion that the county document should be used in this article instead of the state document. By the way, the Gothamist article you reference above (edit: the link to this article was subsequently removed) is about the delay with the New York City BOE, not the New York State BOE. --Spiffy sperry (talk) 01:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Spiffy sperry The issue was statewide, I sent a proper link about New York counting issues, which has been a 2020 centric issue because of COVID and greater absentee ballot usage. **It is likely that the state agency and the county agency agree, you are just using incorrect data to provide an outdated assertion, please go call the state agency they will tell you Biden won Ontario.** My evidence for this is simple look at the vote totals, Biden+39 has a greater total, and the page says it is the FINAL and OFFICAL results, suggesting the state approved this. We all mistakes sometimes and as editors once we call the state agency and also talk to the county agency, we will get the complete results, as at the moment we are in the middle of an intractable dispute.

Spiffy sperry Again, the only way to resolve this isn't to be fighting over links and evidence it is to go directly to the authoritative source that being the STATE AGENCY call them and ask them about Ontario Counties results, this will resolve the dispute. Dave Leip like many election data sites NYT including has errors and the only authoritative source is the State and County Agencies. By the way elections are run by the county and the vast majority of decisions are made by the county in terms of vote counting, with state oversight of course as you say.

What you are suggesting is in violation of WP:NOR. Calling an agency and making claims as to what they told you is original research and cannot be used to verify your claims. If the state releases information on the dispute, you can cite that. But calling state agencies for evidence violates WP:V and WP:NOR. Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Additionally, the county marking something as final and official says nothing about whether or not the state has endorsed those results. The county officials said it's final, but the state officials might have objected to parts of the results and adjusted them to account for minor discrepancies and issues. It's close enough for that to be an issue. The fact that the county says it's final says nothing about whether the state results are correct. Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 17:18, 22 December 2020 (UT)

HerbfurOk then, I've emailed the state board and hopefully they update the results or clear up the confusion. It's amazing how Wikipedia operates more on consensus of editors than it does on what's factual or not. While I understand these rules are necessary if I'm wrong I'll own up to it, If I'm not we need to stop trying to weigh sources and just tell it how it is.

This discussion inappropriately went off the rails when it’s quite clear Biden won the county per official certified counts. Look no further than the Wikipedia page for Ontario County: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_County,_New_York, where the table of presidential election results reflects the correct figures from the county. The county figures are newer and reflective of the final canvass, and neither here nor on other pages is the correct depiction of results held hostage to delays in the state updating its results webpage. The map should be accordingly changed to reflect a Biden win. Aidansi384 (talk) 04:48, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

The Ontario County, New York article appears to be in the middle of an edit war, so that is hardly definitive. Your contention that more recent data must be the correct data is without merit. There are deadlines to consider. --Spiffy sperry (talk) 05:24, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

More recent data is unquestionably more valid, particularly in New York which, as noted above, faced substantial challenges in ballot canvassing statewide. When do you think would be an appropriate time to change the article to reflect the proper results? Whose responsibility is it to adjudicate this? Will this article just remain in limbo and show *incorrect information* until NYS fixes an error of its own on its website? Aidansi384 (talk) 00:31, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

First, we don't know if it's an error, that's original research. And I remind you, Wikipedia is not a leader. We follow the reliable sources and the New York State data is the highest source. Until they change, we're following what they're saying right now. Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 02:14, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

It’s not original research when the results are posted and indicated as final and official by the Board of Elections of the specific county in question. Given the discrepancy there is certainly an error in one direction, and it would stand to reason that the earlier result is the one in error. I could be wrong, but I do not understand why you or Spiffy sperry are able to adjudicate on your own what constitutes a reliable source when nothing inherently suggests the state website is any more reliable than the county one. I respect the need for accurate information confirmed by other sources, but why is the NY state data considered more reliable than the numbers given by those who counted the ballots? Aidansi384 (talk) 05:34, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The State is the higher authority and publishes final, official information. The actual results sent to the FEC are from the state. It's simply a fact that the state results need to take priority over county results. Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 20:12, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

BOE Update

Note that updated results now show Biden carrying Ontario and Suffolk counties, among others which I haven't yet gone through. I'll update them later in the day. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 18:46, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Jumped. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 18:57, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

The new map is terrible

idk why, but on every election since 2000, the county map for NY looks different, and it looks awful in the NYC and Long Island area. Could we bring the old county map back? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.29.123.63 (talk) 03:14, 2 July 2021 (UTC)