Talk:2021 United States gubernatorial elections/Archive 1

Archive 1

California Runoffs

Should the possible runoff election California be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historybufffanatic2005 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Recall Map label precedent.

OK, so it looks like the California recall is, as far as Wikipedia is concerned, likely enough to happen to include an actual page and note on this page, and as such has been labeled on the map. However, there is an argument of how exactly it should be shown on said map. Currently on the map it is labeled as a ineligible/term-limited election (as Gavin Newsom cannot run on the replacement ballot as the incumbent official being recalled), however, it could also be argued that Gavin Newsom is running in the recall ballot as well as the incumbent campaigning against recall, which would make it so that he is "running" in a certain sense. Honestly, the argument on how exactly the recall should be labeled on this article could go either way, as the person who edited the California additions themselves, User:RaySwifty18, stated in their edit. While I am not specifically speaking in favor or against potential changes, I just wanted to ask, should we change the map color to light blue, or should it be left as is? JadeEditor (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

@JadeEditor: first, it probably shouldn't be included in the map yet, until reliable sources say it will happen. Secondly, as Newsom is running in the recall, I'd give it "Democratic incumbent" colors and note the apparent recall. OwO (what's this?) 09:58, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

@Elli: I agree with you that the article itself is a bit premature, even though it's probably going to happen, but it looks like a lot of the folks at Wikipedia disagree, so I've put aside that issue for now. And I do think you have a point regarding Newsom running in the recall, albeit only on the first yes-no ballot and not on the replacement one. We should still probably leave the star there to note the recall though, at least until the election is over and we can mark it as a "Democratic retain". JadeEditor (talk) 15:41, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, there's no real precedent. The oldest versions that exists of the 2003 United States gubernatorial elections and 2003 United States elections pages date back to '03, after the elections were over. We can't use the 2012 Wisconsin precedent because Walker did run in that recall. Newsom can't run in the recall, but he still could stay in office. Because both shades apply, I think the best solution would be to have a completely different shade of blue for stuff like this. BazingaFountain42 (talk) 16:33, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

California Gubernatorial Recall Election

I have been noticing a rhetorical disparity between this page and the actual California gubernatorial recall page. On the Wikipedia page that specifically talks about the California recall, it has an overwhelmingly careful tone and it is consistent in pointing out that the election has not actually been called by the Secretary of State. For example, the first sentence already says "The 2021 gubernatorial recall election is EXPECTED to be a special election..." The emphasis is mine, but it is worth noting the subtle differences between that and this main page, where when the recall is mentioned, it says "Additionally, a special election... is also scheduled to be held at some point during this cycle." This is basically assuming the recall is going to happen, when there is (as of now) still no such guarantee. In a similar vein, I believe it would be more accurate if "Star indicates a recall election" underneath the map were changed to something along the lines of "Star indicates a potential recall election".

I also believe the "... eventually triggering a recall election" on this page is factually inaccurate as no recall election has been triggered as of yet. EddyViola36 (talk) 21:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Add Alaska to map, or take California off of it

Both are in the same scenerio where the recalls are anticipated, but not yet formally scheduled. Either take California off the map, or add Alaska to it. SecretName101 (talk) 20:59, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I would agree, but nowhere in the 2022 Alaska election page is a recall mentioned; there is no dedicated 2021 Alaska recall election page; the only mention of a Gov. Dunleavy recall I can find in Wikipedia is on the actual page for Mike Dunleavy and is only mentioned in passing when discussing his tenure. I think the recall effort should gain more press / media attention and actually have a Wikipedia page before adding Alaska as a potential recall here. EddyViola36 (talk) 05:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Images in infobox

This is an article about elections in NJ and VA, but the pictures are governors from NM and AZ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:84:C602:4D00:78C0:9AF0:E5F1:8EF4 (talk) 20:35, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

The IP was and is right. Maybe there's a reason that I just can't figure out, but why are there photos of Arizona & New Mexico candidates in this particular infobox? Makes no sense to me... Pinging past experienced editors of article and pinging editors who are members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Elections and Referendums to this discussion: GoodDay, Love of Corey, Kaltenmeyer, MarioJump83, KingSkyLord, Jon Kolbert, PCN02WPS, TommyBoy. Maybe they can 'splain it to me or fix the issue and tell us why this was happening etc.. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 18:41, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Shearonink, the images are of the chairs of the Republican and Democratic Governors Associations, respectively. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:48, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

PCN02WPS Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, but why are they in this infobox? Maybe this IP & myself are the only readers who are puzzled by the images - I doubt it - but even seeing that they are the chairs of these associations I don't understand why their images are in this particular infobox. I'm also not seeing any pertinent labels. Shearonink (talk) 19:04, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Shearonink. As I understand it, they are in the infobox as the political coalition leaders of the US Governors, in sort of a similar vein to how Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer are labeled in the infobox as the Senate leaders in Senate election articles even if neither is up for reelection. JadeEditor (talk) 19:17, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

JadeEditor Maybe editors who set up this infobox's syntax or who are experienced with the WikiProject or US election politics might understand the why, but casual readers or our worldwide audience might not understand at all...even editors with some experience like myself might be somewhat puzzled. I think these images need at least some kind of labeling to make their purpose clear... Shearonink (talk) 19:26, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Shearonink They are labeled as their respective political leaders as standardized by the precedent of other US Election pages, so I am not sure what else can be done about that. JadeEditor (talk) 01:34, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

My impression was that the photos were randomized between all of the U.S. governors. Love of Corey (talk) 21:13, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Random photos? How does that summarize 2021 gubernatorial elections" And the infobox doesn't state these people are randomly selected governors' photos. At the moment Wikipedia is presenting a photo of Doug Ducey - Governor of Arizona, alongside a photo of Michelle Grisham - Governor of New Mexico, with the following parameters listed underneath:

Leader. Leader? Leader of what. They're leader of their states but neither one has anything to do with any 2021 gubernatorial elections.

Leader's seat. Let's say I'm not from the US, I'll look at that phrase and wonder what in the world it means.

Seats before. ?

Seats up. Again, ?.(Shearonink (talk) 01:51, 31 March 2021 (UTC))

OK, if you still don't get it, I'll lay it out. JadeEditor (talk) 02:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

They are the leader of the official political coalitions of governors, the Republican Governors Association and the Democratic Governors Association respectively.

The locational seat where they are elected. Say a governor is the governor of Arizona, their seat, no surprise, is Arizona, as that is the place/constituency they have gotten elected in.

The seats held by each coalition before election.

The seats being contested this year. JadeEditor (talk) 02:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

I still don't get it because the fact that these two people are the leaders of the two US political parties' governors associations is not indicated anywhere in the infobox. Shearonink (talk) 07:22, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

They are indicated as the political leaders in very said infobox, and this one tells just as much as any other US election infobox. Other supplementary information specifically retaining to the elections this year should be in the article itself. Infoboxes by design are not meant to give every single detail, but a generalist beginners simplified overview. This is standard for election articles. JadeEditor (talk) 17:51, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

I know what infoboxes are supposed to do and I didn't say they were supposed to give every single detail, they are supposed to summarize key details of the article. This infobox does not summarize, it has photos of politicians without any context as to why they are there. These two people are indicated as governors with no information at this article as to why these two particular governors are in this infobox. If this is standard operating procedure for US election articles - keeping WP:MOS guidelines in mind? - then the infoboxes themselves would seem to need to be adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 21:14, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

The infobox provides both the name of the people in the pictures in addition to stating states that said governors are political leaders, and that's basically, as I understand it, how it's supposed to work (as of course, this is a page about governors, so in the section about leaders there would be the labels of the gubernatorial leaders). These pictures aren't there without context. If you wish to state that this is still a bit confusing and/or not specific enough, perhaps we can also take this conversation to pages such as 2022 United States Senate Elections and 2022 United States House of Representatives Elections, and see their views on the subject. JadeEditor (talk) 01:12, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

At least at 2022 United States Senate elections the two photos are of the Senate Majority Leader and the Minority Leader and at 2022 United States House of Representatives elections the 2 photos are of the Speaker of the House and the House Minority Leader. I am stating that it certainly seems to be an error to our readership to have unrelated governors be in the infobox at this article and at the other articles in this series, this is not a page about these particular governors it is an article about various elections taking place all over the country. The heads of the governors associations are not really the leaders of governors of other states in any executive or governing sense, but anyway, I've already opened up a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referendums under Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referendums#So....infoboxes.... Shearonink (talk) 07:44, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

And if these governors weren't related to the election, I would agree with you. The thing is though, to a certain extent, they are related. They are the political leaders of the governors, which is why they are there to begin with. It's a similar reason to why we mention Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell as the Senate leadership even if like in 2018, neither were up for reelection. And nor do those infoboxes explain what a "Majority leader" or a "Minority leader" is nor does it really explain what a the party leadership is, it just marks them as leaders. So honestly to me this is par for the course for elections. That being said, I'm not opposed to change here, and I'm open to potential edits, but I'm just saying IDK why this specific page is singled out for something that seems standard. JadeEditor (talk)

"To a certain extent they are related"... But these two individuals are not the political leaders of the governors, they have no power executively over any governors, they are heads of a fundraising/lobbying group...Wikipedia does not put the chairs of the Democratic National Committee and of the Republican National Committee in infoboxes about the US Senate or about the US House of Representatives or in their associated election articles. I think the action that makes the most sense - mentioned elsewhere within this thread - is to remove photos of any governors from this and the other US gubernatorial election series articles. I would retain the information of 'Seats before', 'Seats up', 'Seats won', 'Seat change' since that information is specifically about the election.

As to why this specific page might be somehow "being singled out"? It's where I came across this puzzlement first and it isn't just here - I've subsequently raised this issue at the associated WikiProject since it seems to impact all the articles in the series. I became interested in the issue, that's all, and, besides, I don't need to justify my Wikipedia editorial decisions or lack thereof to anyone, we're all volunteers remember, we can edit where, when, and how we like (barring any topic bans/interaction bans etc.) Cheers, Shearonink (talk) 20:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Just to be clear here, I'm not absolutely opposed to you changing it. If you want to go with that, be my guest, I can't stop you. I'm just trying to point out any potential problems or counterpoints to your change, considering Wikipedia is not kind to changing something that has worked previously for who knows how many years (considering the page right now has been how it has done for who knows how long), if the editorial rules we all agreed to are any indication. Now, moving on to your reply, note that I said "political" not "legal", since it's the politians that set up their own party leadership, and it just so happens that they also give other legal positions like the House Speakership to leaders. But regarding the point of why the DNC or RNC chairs are not in the boxes is because for any US election article, it's standard to use the political heads of the specific political branches for each election. That's why we use Nancy Pelosi and Kevin McCarthy for the House, Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell for the Senate. Also, I feel like we may have deviated away from the original objection of stating that there was no correlation between the pictures and the elections. JadeEditor (talk) 20:43, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

There's no context to the who/what/how/why/when of these photos...just apparently random photos of random governors of random states in the US, they're not even photos of current governors in states holding 2021 United States gubernatorial elections, which would be Virginia, New Jersey, and the recall election in California. Per MOS:INFOBOX an infobox is supposed to summarize the important facts in the article. This current rendering of this article's infobox seems to just not. This permutation just doesn't make sense to me, if someone can explain to me 1)why this present infobox makes sense and 2)how it summarizes the article, then great. If no one can do that then maybe this infobox and other infoboxes in this election series should be changed. Shearonink (talk) 01:51, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Again, to be clear, they are not random, they are the leaders of the Democratic and Republican governors, and it does tell you that these specific people are the leaders. Just because they specifically are not up for election does not mean they are NOT the leaders of their respective coalitions. And this sort of format is standard for American elections, as it tells who the political leaders of these groups of positions are and the respective strength of them. JadeEditor (talk) 02:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

It is not clear from the infobox why these two people are in the infobox for this article. Are their photos and the information a summary of the article's important points? Just because people who regularly edit this article and other associated US election articles might know why these particular photos are in this article's infobox doesn't mean everyone else does. I didn't, other people don't, someone had to explain it to me. An article's infobox shouldn't have to be explained. Shearonink (talk) 07:22, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Shearonink. The infobox doesn't have to have any pictures of people. Drop the pictures and the names as "leaders" and just list the two parties. Bondegezou (talk) 09:54, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

We could... explain the situation with this in the article? OwO (what's this?) 10:00, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

But is that according to MOS? Why should an infobox have to be explained in the article it is supposed to summarize? Seems like it should be the other way around... Shearonink (talk) 20:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

My comments at the Wikiproject talk: The RGA and DGA are just fundraising organizations. The groups of governors are not cohesive bodies like caucuses in a legislature would be, and there is no defined gain for their chairs for winning a certain number of seats as a legislative party leader would become speaker. They are not direct rivals and moreover never serve as chair in the same year they're up for election themselves. I do not believe the RGA/DGA chairs should be on the annual gubernatorial elections articles. Reywas92^Talk 18:38, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

My comments on the WikiProject talk page: Yeah this is weird. Having pictures of two heads of fundraising organizations on every one of these does not make sense, and not at least indicating that it is their position makes it much more confusing. It looks like some parliament rather than elections for separate executives with varying amounts of power. These people are not relevant enough and should not have photos in the infobox. DemonDays64 (talk) 00:32, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

I was going to delete the 2 photos from this page, that seems to be the consensus here but please see my Comment below.Shearonink (talk) 03:38, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: I did some research and images of various governors (apparently heads of the 2 Governors' Associations at the time of the election though that isn't always made clear) were added to multiple US gubernatorial election articles in one fell swoop this past December on the 26th in this series of edits. So far as I can tell there was no discussion at the individual articles or at Wikipedia:WikiProject Elections and Referendums. It seems to me that opening an RFC at the WikiProject Elections and Referendums is the best course of action and that is what I am going to do. I am of the opinion that these images of individual governors - I think all are the heads of the Democratic & Republican Governors' Associations at the time of that particular gubernatorial election (fundraising organizations with no executive powers over other governors) - are unneeded and confusing, to people who are knowledgeable about American elections and to people who are not. Other editors' opinions might differ but let's discuss and perhaps come to an overall consensus here in one main location. Trying to go through each one of the different articles individually doesn't seem quite fair when the action itself was done all at once over at least 38 different articles, other gubernatorial articles also have had the heads of the DGA & RGA added to their infoboxes independently (see 2022 election article. Shearonink (talk) 03:38, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

An RfC has been opened on this issue in a central location, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referendums#Request for comment on including individual governors' photos in the infoboxes of articles in the US gubernatorial election series. Shearonink (talk) 03:38, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - The WP:RfC at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referendums on this issue has been closed. The consensus has been to not include the photos of the heads of the DGA and of the RGA in the infobox of this and the other US gubernatorial election series articles. Shearonink (talk) 05:19, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

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