Talk:2021 World Rally Championship/Archive 1

Archive 1

Support championships in the WRC

Mclarenfan17 here coming out of a mostly-retired state (I was bored and tables needed filling in).

I have been thinking about the way that Wikipedia represents competitors in the WRC championships, and I feel like we're doing it wrong. A couple of years ago, we had every championship in the one article - this was back in the days of the SWRC, PWRC, JWRC and so on - and it was a mess. With the creation of the WRC-2 and WRC-3, we split championships out into a series of interconnected articles, the reason being that the WRC, WRC-2, WRC-3 and J-WRC were recognised as individual championships and often had their own rules (i.e., the J-WRC only contests two legs of a rally and offers additional points for stage wins). Keeping track of it all in one article was impractical and ridiculous; some of those articles easily crossed 100,000kB in size.

But here is where the problem comes in: competitors are eligible for WRC points regardless of which championship they are entered into, but Wikipedia only addresses them in the "primary" championship. Oliver Solberg joined Hyundai's WRC-2 campaign and so will only be mentioned in the WRC-2 article unless he happens to score WRC points despite the fact that he is equally eligible for WRC and WRC-2 points. This idea of a "primary" championship is a complete fabrication on our part.

The cause (or possibly effect or even by-product; I haven't decided which) of this is the unspoken categorisation of competitors. We currently have the following:

1. Crews in manufacturer teams driving 2017-spec cars
2. Crews driving 2017-spec cars that are not in manufacturer teams
3. Crews that are not in manufacturer teams or 2017-spec cars who score WRC points
4. Crews that are not in manufacturer teams or 2017-spec cars that do not score WRC points
5. Crews that are considered notable (i.e. Johan Kristofferson), but are not registered for points
6. Privateer entries that make a limited number of appearances and may or may not be in a Group R car

Of that list, the article only explicitly covers the first two categories. The third category may be covered - but not explicitly - if certain conditions are met. The final three categories are not covered here, although category four is covered in the WRC-2, WRC-3 and J-WRC articles. Category five is covered as needed, usually in a rally report. Category six is never covered. However, it is not clear to the average reader that these categories exist, and given that they are eligible to score WRC points, omitting them is a misrepresentation of the championship. 1.129.108.65 (talk) 04:03, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Also - and this is just my estimation here - half of the crews that scored points in 2020 were not competing in Rally1/WRC cars at the time. I expect that you would find a similar pattern in previous years. 1.129.107.54 (talk) 09:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

So, here's what I'm thinking we should do:

Entrant	Car	Driver name	Co-driver name	Rounds
Crews entered under Rally1 regulations
Hyundai Motorsport	Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC	Craig Breen	Paul Nagle	1
		Thierry Neuville	Nicolas Gilsoul	1
Crews entered under Rally2 regulations
Hyundai Motorsport N	Hyundai i20 R5	Oliver Solberg	Aaron Johnston	1
		Ole Christian Veiby	Jonas Andersson	1

It's basically taking the format from rally report articles and adapting it to fit the season article format. 1.129.107.56 (talk) 22:16, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

But that is just reverting to the pre-2017 layout, isn't it? The real deciding factor is the championship that a crew/entrant register to; it has nothing to do with whether they are eligible to score WRC points or not. Therefore, the question remains to be entering WRC-2/3/J = entering WRC? Or, more to the point, is the WRC referring to WRC(-1) or WRC(-1) and its supporting category? I think I need to go and check the regulation book first. Unnamelessness (talk) 10:16, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The regulation is here

"The FIA organises the FIA World Rally Championship (the Championship) which is the property of the FIA. The World Rally Championship is governed by the FIA International Sporting Code and its appendices (the Code) and these regulations which consist of articles applicable to one or more of the following specific Championships/Cups:

• WRC championships (P1)
  • FIA World Rally Championship for Drivers
  • FIA World Rally Championship for Co-Drivers
  • FIA World Rally Championship for Manufacturers
  • FIA World Rally Championship for Teams
• WRC-2 championships (P2)
  • FIA WRC2 Championship for Drivers
  • FIA WRC2 Championship for Co-Drivers
  • FIA WRC2 Championship for Teams
• WRC-3 championships (P3)
  • FIA WRC3 Championship for Drivers
  • FIA WRC3 Championship for Co-Drivers
• Junior championships (P4)
  • FIA Junior WRC Championship for Drivers
  • FIA Junior WRC Championship for Co-Drivers
  • FIA Junior WRC Trophy for Nations
• RGT Cups (RGT)
  • FIA RGT Cup for Drivers
  • FIA RGT Cup for Co-Drivers

The Championship rallies are published on the FIA annual calendar."

It is pretty clear the season consists of five categories, eleven championships, one trophy and two cups. Hence the "WRC" only refers to "WRC(-1)", so I don't think we should include all WRC-2/3/J/notable crews/privateers in this page because a) this is the article that focuses on World Rally Cars/P1/Rally1 and b) possible undue weight. Moreover, while half of the crews that scored points in 2020 were non-WRC crews, the top eleven spots were still covered by WRC crews. Unnamelessness (talk) 13:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Unnamelessness:

But that is just reverting to the pre-2017 layout, isn't it?

No. The pre-2017 layout put every table (entry lists, results matrices, etc.) in one article. This would be treating WRC-2 and WRC-3 competitors as WRC competitors while keeping separate WRC-2 and WRC-3 articles.

The real deciding factor is the championship that a crew/entrant register to; it has nothing to do with whether they are eligible to score WRC points or not.

By entering in a rally, they register to score WRC points. We know this because WRC points are regularly scored by WRC-2 and WRC-3 crews and are placed in the final standings, even if they only compete in one rally. Furthermore, look at a driver article - like Marco Bulacia Wilkinson - where driver results are listed in multiple championships at the same time.

It is pretty clear the season consists of five categories, eleven championships, one trophy and two cups. Hence the "WRC" only refers to "WRC(-1)"

This isn't like the WEC where you have multiple classes of racing on the same circuit, but the classes score points independently of each other. You can score points in multiple championships in the WRC depending on what you register for.

I don't think we should include all WRC-2/3/J/notable crews/privateers in this page because

And I am not suggesting that we do. J-WRC entrants cannot score WRC points because they only do the first two legs of a rally (I think). Notable crews should be mentioned if they score points, but we can use our discretion (and we already do - you're only included in the results matrix if you score points). And I don't think anyone would expect us to include gentlemen drivers who are not notable enough to have a Wikipedia article.

this is the article that focuses on World Rally Cars/P1/Rally1

No, this is the article thst focuses only the World Rally Championship. Rally1 cars are not the only cars competing in it.

possible undue weight

Not at all. There are WRC-2 and WRC-3 crews who can compete in the entire championship, and yet you're suggesting that they would not be notable enough to be mentioned in this article? If anything, you're putting undue weight on Rally1 crews and misrepresenting things by suggesting that they are the only ones competing in the championship. 1.129.107.32 (talk) 21:13, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The actual question here is still what the "World Rally Championship" refers to. The entire eleven championships above or the WRC(-1) category? Sure, crews like Mads Østberg and Torstein Eriksen score both WRC drivers'/co-driver' points and their "primary" championship points (in this case, FIA WRC2 Championship for Drivers and FIA WRC2 Championship for Co-Drivers championships), but what about their team? PH Sport did not score WRC points this year. This is the point that really confuses me — Such crews can score FIA World Rally Championship for Drivers and FIA World Rally Championship for Co-Drivers championships points, but their team cannot score FIA World Rally Championship for Manufacturers championship points. Of course, the FIA will introduce the FIA World Rally Championship for Teams championship next season. I suspect it is a championship that combines of non-manufacturer teams that compete with World Rally Cars, i.e. Hyundai 2C Competition and the like, and all WRC-2/3 teams (but WRC-3 don't have any team anyway). In that case, the logic is clear, and I would support you; for now, it is a bit WP:OR, so I'd suggest to wait until the first round is over to see what is happened and then decide how to organise the layout. Unnamelessness (talk) 08:37, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

@Unnamelessness

The actual question here is still what the "World Rally Championship" refers to. The entire eleven championships above or the WRC(-1) category?

I think it refers to all eleven championships. The WRC(-1) is a category within those championships. We are just in an unusual position where the championship as a whole and the individual category run parallel to each other.

As I understand it, Rally1 is the top tier. Rally2 is the WRC-2 and WRC-3. Rally3 will be for gentlemen drivers and amateurs. Rally4 will be designed to bridge the gap between the WRC-2/3 and the J-WRC. Rally5 will be the J-WRC. That's why I suggested including Rally1 and Rally2: they're the serious competitors. Rally3 is for fun, Rally4 has no formal championship (they're basically R2 cars with four-wheel drive) and while Rally5 is the J-WRC, it follows its own rules for scoring. 1.129.106.124 (talk) 11:13, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Yep, Wiki Spain and Japan both have done the same. But look at the entry list of 2020 World Rally Championship-3 — I am worrying that the entry list section is going to be a mess if add all Rally1/2 cars there. I believe the best solution is either a) only include Rally1 + Rally2 cars who score WRC points or b) straight create a list, let's say List of 2021 World Rally Championship entrants, which can be used as an interactive page for all WRC/2/3/J and rally pages. Unnamelessness (talk) 12:51, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Or we can just keep the current layout, but adding some proses and Template:Further to guide readers to the entry list of WRC-2/3. Unnamelessness (talk) 12:56, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I think a change to the format is most appropriate, especially given the creation of the teams' championship. I'll have a think about what it should look like. 1.129.107.16 (talk) 22:10, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

@Unnamelessness - do you have any sources about the creation of the teams' championship? They might contain some clue(s) about how the FIA plans to run it, which in turn would give us clues about how to structure the article.

For now it seems like the WRC-2 is for teams and professionals and the WRC-3 is for amateurs, and includes both serious amateurs (like Bulacia Wilkinson) and gentlemen drivers. While technically Rally2 is for serious amateurs and Rally3 is for gentlemen drivers, there aren't actually any Rally3 cars available just yet (M-Sport have a Fiesta coming later this year), so they compete under Rally2 regulations for now. 2001:8003:2312:E301:414A:7417:F55D:6C25 (talk) 23:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Here is the new 2021 regulation book: [1]. Here is the 2020 one: [2]. The FIA World Rally Championship for Teams championship first appears in the latest rule book. Unnamelessness (talk) 04:22, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

@Unnamelessness so, here's what I'm thinking when it comes to the WRC-2 and WRC-3: first of all, all WRC-2 entries are automatically included here. The championship is for professional teams and drivers. When it comes to the WRC-3, we use our discretion. This is an article about a championship, and as a championship is made up of multiple events, a crew would need to enter multiple events to be included here. 1.129.106.150 (talk) 02:35, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

THREE tables? Really? Let's stop over-designing the tables instead of trying to get them to do multiple things. The rest of the article - prose, results matrices, etc. - is a much more effective and much more appropriate way to discuss who is eligible to score which points.

Besides, I thought we were going to wait until after Monte Carlo. 1.129.105.130 (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Also, the creation of the teams' championship changes things. The way that I am reading the regulations - and they're a bit vague, so we'll need to see how they will be applied - is that Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT will not score manufacturer points. Rather, they will score team points and Toyota will score manufacturer points. Thus, the Katsuta entry would score team points separately to the Evans/Ogier/Rovanperä entries, but all four could score manufacturer points together regardless of which team they compete for. The whole concept of being nominated or eligible to score manufacturer points goes out the window. 1.129.105.130 (talk) 22:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Multiple tables avoid WP:ACCESSIBILITY issue. When it comes to the car numbers of Rally2 cars, which usually are not fixed, we are going to use footnotes like the crew of Deividas Jocius and Mindaugas Varža last year for indefinite times. Extra tables allow us to redesign the layout so that we can simply remove the car number columns. This is also how WRC-2/3/J articles were done in the last few years. Unnamelessness (talk) 05:23, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Do we really need the numbers column? Sure, they were useful when the numbers were assigned sequentially, but now that they're driver-nominated, I don't really see what they add. Other series do it to allow a team or driver to build up an identity - and in some cases a mythos - around a particular number, but the coverage of the WRC is so sparse that I don't see that happening. The only practical reasoning that I can see for it is to a) distinguish between cars in the teams/manufacturers matrices (which we don't do and my thoughts on that are well-documented) and b) to identify cars in images, but those images will be captioned with the crew names anyway. I think getting rid of a superficial column is a simple trade-off for a more uniform and representative driver table. 1.129.105.138 (talk) 09:00, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

I am actually thinking of implementing the car numbers in the teams/manufacturers matrices (like Talk:2020 World Rally Championship/Archive 2#Quick guiding) because the third car is possible to score points for their manufacturer (Power Stage). Unnamelessness (talk) 10:42, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

That's a fair point. It becomes a bit complicated if Rally2 entries can score points there. We could just do the same thing that we did with Jocius last year for Rally2 entries - make a note that numbers changed. We need to have fewer tables where possible, not more. 1.129.105.106 (talk) 11:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Numbers column

I don't see the point of the numbers column. Covering both Rally1 and Rally2 entries is more important than numbers, and Rally2 numbers are changing round by round. I think sacrificing the numbers column for the sake of addressing every entry eligible to score points is a more-than-acceptable trade-off. 1.144.108.135 (talk) 11:44, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Which is why I was intended to use MULTIPLE tables. Unnamelessness (talk) 11:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

And more to point is, the last consensus is including the numbers column while making notes for the rally2 crew. Unnamelessness (talk) 12:02, 12 January 2021 (UTC)