Talk:2021 national electoral calendar

Indirect

Why are we removing indirect presidential or upper house elections? They're important, national elections all the same. They're often if not always important events for their countries. For example the kosovar one is widely expected to trigger a legislative election in its failure to elect a president. I don't see why we're excluding them. --Aréat (talk) 17:47, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

This was already an established policy before I came around, but I agree with excluding indirect elections. They're not public elections. And because the public does not participate, most people in the English-speaking world would not recognize them as elections whatsoever — it's something completely different but which uses the same word, for reasons dating back a thousand years to the post-Carolingian period when the public was forcibly excluded from the ancient tradition of political assemblies. Indirect elections may be very important events, but there are many events of all different types which impact politics: that is why there are separate articles like 2020 in politics and government, whereas these electoral lists are narrowed down to just popular elections — which is exactly what most readers would be looking for in them. Sladnick (talk) 08:04, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

That's the first time I hear this. What is your sources for them not being considered elections? I follow such events quite widely and their respective sources always call them elections. Which they simply are. There doesn't need to be a direct vote by the population for it to be called an election. They're publicised and widely talked about, albeit way less than direct ones, because indirect head of states and upper houses usually have way less power than their elected counterparts. Doesn't make it less of an election. As for different political events existing, that's irrelevant here. We're talking about elections because the page here is about them. The title doesn't claim to be solely about direct elections. --Aréat (talk) 15:02, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

There is an indirect election happening in the United States tomorrow, but nobody, whether they support or oppose the Electoral College, speaks of it as an election. Just looking right now through an old physical World Book Encyclopedia and the digital Encyclopædia Britannica, both treat elections exclusively as processes in which there is a popular vote (whether based on broad suffrage or a more limited electorate). A list of votes held in parliament or some other such body just is not what most people would be looking for here, and would be confusing and overload the list. I think it would be a good idea if indirect elections are separated out to be listed on their own. But the purpose of these articles should not be to change people's definitions of elections or educate them that indirect elections are actually elections too. Sladnick (talk) 19:28, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm sure you know how much of a "One of its kind" the US election is. I don't think we can use as an exemple an election that work in a way no other election do. Meanwhile, there's dozens of countries that use indirect elections for their head of states or upper houses. This year, we've got the 2020 Greek presidential election, 2020 French Senate election, and 2020 Nepalese National Assembly election. Next year there will be the 2021 Kosovan presidential election, 2021 Israeli presidential election and the 2021 Estonian presidential election (I'm linking the 2016 one for the latter, as the 2021 page hasn't been created yet). I could go on with the years, but the point is that I don't see why we title these pages elections, with sources calling them elections, yet on the page that is supposed to list elections of national head of states and legislatures, we don't have them appear. Sure, I could create a specific page, but there's only a handful of them that would have to be added on this page. Creating a different one and adding the years on the bottom template seem like an unecessary bother.--Aréat (talk) 20:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to including them on the existing electoral calendars but as a separate section at the bottom, though I think others should be given time to weigh in. For the record, the policy of limiting these electoral calendar pages to direct elections has been explicitly stated at least since January 2008. The debate about excluding indirect elections in general appears (from what I can find) to have been conducted in 2007 mainly on the talk pages of national election templates. Sladnick (talk) 21:06, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure. Let's wait for some other opinions. And a separate bottom section could be a solution.--Aréat (talk) 21:10, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Aréat how should we handle the last Lebanese presidential election, which took 46 rounds of voting? Sladnick (talk) 22:52, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

That's quite an election for sure, forty rounds over two years. I think the simpler way would be to have it on the year a president was finally elected, 2016, with something like "From 23 April 2014 to 31 October 2016: Liban, President". We could maybe have the same mention on the starting year, and at most another on the in-between year, but there's really no need to detail each round with the exact dates, when the election page itself has absolutely no data about nearly all of them, with at most a mention that some happened on a given day.--Aréat (talk) 23:11, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Aréat I'm not sure how to list the elections for the Belgian Senate. Its composition is based on the results of the general election, but that's not the end of the process of actually determining its membership — however I can't figure out any other date to use. Also, is there any reason not to include the San Marino Captains Regent elections, even though it will be a bit annoying to have them listed for the same dates every year for such a small country? Sladnick (talk) 05:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I have to admit I don't know how to handle those. We have on these pages some direct election for parliament that also have a handful of seats filled by nomination at a later date (for example in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines . Yet we only use the main vote day. I would say we do that as well for the belgian senate.
For the captains Regent, I can see how that's a bother. That's just one line, though, and we would have it as well if it was a direct one. It's not an independent country so it's not on the page, but Tasmania has direct election for a third of its senate every year, for example.--Aréat (talk) 14:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Aréat The last case to consider is China. It does technically have indirect elections, but far more indirect than in any other country. There are direct elections for Local People's Congresses, but with the Communist Party and various other special bodies having extensive powers to determine the nominees and stage manage the process — not too unusual for a dictatorship. Where China is unique is that when those Local People's Congresses elect delegates to Provincial People's Congresses they are once again placed under the same controls, with other bodies outside the chain of elections actually determining the nominees and approving or rejecting the outcome. And then this is repeated a third time when the Provincial People's Congresses elect delegates to the National People's Congress. The actual connection between the (very small scale) elections and the formation of the NPC is so tenuous that I would say that this should not even be included as an indirect election, but maybe I am biased. Sladnick (talk) 03:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't know if this qualify as an election, yeah. In any case, if it does, the national election is only the final election of the national body by the electoral college.--Aréat (talk) 04:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I cheated by adding in the section intro that the indirect election list only includes votes by elected bodies. This definition also excludes, for example, the 2012 Somali presidential election. Sladnick (talk) 10:11, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Incomplete:

1) Malaysian Dewan Negara — done only for 2016–21, and possible gaps in this period.

2) Russian Federation Council — nothing yet, working to figure out if viable to include.

Sladnick (talk) 01:14, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Somalia Senate election, by the parliaments of the Federal Member States, begins 31 December 2020. When I looked into it in the recent past I could find no evidence that these state parliaments were actually elected, but rather the opposite. If that is correct, then the Somalia Senate election should not be listed. If, however, someone can find info that at least some of the state parliaments are actually elected, then we should include the senate vote in the indirect section. Sladnick (talk) 10:05, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

2021 US Electoral Vote Count

I believe the Electoral Vote Count should be added to the indirect election section as this is the part of the US election that actually selects the winner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrendonJH (talk • contribs) 10:45, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Scotland and Wales

Why not remove the British Overseas Territories too? CommieCowboy (talk) 21:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

If I recall well they don't vote in UK elections. If they do, they should be removed.--Aréat (talk) 23:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Netherlands

@Jwkozak91: You're mistaking the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Netherlands proper. The latter is a part of the former, on an equal level as Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten. If there was an election at the kingdom level, we would include only that one, and have the others on the local election pages, but there's none. If the Netherlands proper isn't in italics, there's no basis to have the others marked as dependent territories. They aren't, they're equal constituent parts.--Aréat (talk) 13:22, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Where is Aruba's seat in the UN General Assembly? Aruba elected representatives to the Kingdom parliament in the election that wasn't italicized. You're the one who is confused. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 00:17, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Aruba doesn't have a UN seat, and neither does Netherlands proper. The kingdom of the Netherlands does, of which Aruba, Curaçao, Sint Maarten and the Netherlands proper are equal constituent parts.

Do you have a source backing that the population of Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten participate in the elections of Netherlands proper? If so, I stand corrected.--Aréat (talk) 00:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

---Pitcairn date

Hallo Pitcairn elections were on Nov 10th. I don t have a link since i am in touch by email with a Pitcairnian citizen. but it's on my Calendar anyway if you wish. Maximiliano Herrera.