Talk:2022 Indonesian criminal code protest

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✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 10:36, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Comparison to 1998 Demonstration

Eustatius Strijder insist to add The protests were the most prominent student movement in Indonesia since the 1998 riots that brought down the Suharto regime into the lead section. That statement is comparing 1998 riots to this protest. When asked for source, he refer to by using driving the latest protests in Indonesia? Aljazeera source. However, the Al Jazeera didn't even comparing this protest to 1998 protest. For clarity, below is what's stated on Al Jazeera source:

The rallies are not associated with a particular party or group and instead are led by students, who have often been a force for political change in Indonesia. It was their demonstrations in 1998 that helped lead to the downfall of former President Suharto who like many Indonesians only goes by one name.

It was clearly stated that Al Jazeera source didn't try to compare those protest, but just inform that rallies that is not associated by party, but by students, may have been a force for political changes. Hence, Eustatius Strijder addition is unsourced and possibly original research, thus it should be either taken out or re-phrased to be aligned with Aljazeera source. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:57, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

If the source is as per you paste above, then I agree...the source has indeed been misrepresented.

It is similar to this issue where the Australia source was misrepresented. I haven't checked the other sources in that section. It probably needs to be checked. The source says Australia updated its travel advice. The editor wrote that Australia "condemned" the new criminal code. Perhaps user:Eustatius Strijder could explain the edit.--Merbabu (talk) 09:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

My sources were not based on 2022-2023 events alone, but also accounts for the 2018-2019 year aswell. According to a PKS cadre statement in Twitter 18 Embassies from European Nations in the 2018-2019 year had statements concerning about the draft criminal code. A member of Gerindra of the Komisi 3 of the DPR Commision admitted that substances in the new criminal code are 80% the same as the previous criminal code, which has no basis for Decolonization. Also, Indonesia have good relationships with the Netherlands diplomatically that also proves that the main point of creating a new revised penal code is not for decolonization but rather for religionization and authoritarianism only. Eustatius Strijder (talk) 09:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Ckfasdf's and my comments are on two specific sources, which we note you have completely misrepresented. Yet your reply has nothing to do with either (and has its own problems).

But one point at a time - can you or can you not address the specific 1998 comparison, and the Australian quote question? --Merbabu (talk) 09:45, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

@Eustatius Strijder: Again, you are missing the point, the question is simply "where is the reference of that comparing 1998 riot to criminal code protest?".

at any case.... please see WP:V and WP:OR. Ckfasdf (talk) 01:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I do agree that there is no sources that compare this to 1998 riots. If there is no sources that back it up, it should be removed per WP:OR. Sources cited above only point out that Indonesia had student protests before, but the statement does not compare this series of protests to the 1998 riots. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 04:37, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I removed it. An obvious misrepresentation of the source. --Merbabu (talk) 10:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Unnecessary fork? A Merger proposal.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus for the set of action outline in the summary of 03:50, 15 January 2023: that is, to refocus the Indonesian Criminal Code Protest article on 2022; no support for the additional proposal of then merging the 2022 content to/with 2023 Indonesian Criminal Code, but further discussion on this may be warranted. Klbrain (talk) 10:41, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

---

I just noticed that most of this article are just copied content on 2019 Indonesian protests and riots, without any attribution to that article as required per WP:COPYWITHIN. If this article is intended to be split-of from above mentioned page then it should follow WP:CORRECTSPLIT

IMO, at this point this page is just another redundant fork per WP:REDUNDANTFORK. Therefore, I propose to merge back this page to 2019 Indonesian protests and riots due to duplicate reason per WP:MERGEREASON. Ckfasdf (talk) 23:52, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@SunDawn and Eustatius Strijder: Your input is really appreciated. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:22, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Support - if we exclude available is indeed just an infobox looking for an article. An alternative may be to merge it into 2023 Indonesian Criminal Code as a reaction section to that article. --Merbabu (talk) 10:41, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - The 2019 Indonesian protests and riots consists of people rejecting the proposed penal code changes (RKUHP) but it also consists of people rejecting the other bills such as Corruption Eradication Law (RUU KPK), Labour bill (RUU Ketenagakerjaan) and Land Bill (RUU Pertahanan). Regarding this Indonesian Criminal Code Protests it only describes for the protests rejecting the Newly Revised Criminal Code only (RKUHP), in 2019 and 2022-present. For the 2019 Indonesian protests and riots it was people rejecting the criminal code changes (RKUHP) and other bills aswell.

Eustatius Strijder (talk) 06:36, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment: - merged or not, the text can mentioned the other issues. But the main issue was the criminal code...hence the name of the article. --Merbabu (talk) 06:40, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Support the merge. Some of the material could also be placed on 2023 Indonesian Criminal Code. Of course, if Indonesia have further protest regarding the code it can be split again, but as of now it shouldn't be split. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 06:32, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree that some of the material here can be put into the 2023 Criminal Code article.--Merbabu (talk) 06:42, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe there would be more protests towards this controversial revised criminal code in the upcoming days from now. However, the students and members of the Labors party and pers are now focusing to protests against the controversial Perppu Cipta Kerja (Omnibus Law on Job Creation) for this upcoming days. After that they will be protesting about the newly revised criminal code again. I will add more about the December 2022 Protests against the newly revised criminal code here but I will find more sources first. Eustatius Strijder (talk) 06:44, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

What the protesters do later, or what issue it's about, or what you might add later to wikipedia does not influence the article merge question. --Merbabu (talk) 06:46, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not about what may be going in the future per WP:CRYSTAL. If the coming protest materialize and well covered by the media another split can be made - but not today. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 06:52, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

No, I'm not talking about the 2023 protests yet, we are finishing the December 2022 protests first about the newly revised criminal code. How can this article be merged into the 2019 Indonesian protests and riots when the protests of the new criminal code bill occur in 2022? Eustatius Strijder (talk) 07:05, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

2019 protest should be merge back to 2019 Indonesian protests and riots and 2022 protest should be merge to 2023 Indonesian Criminal Code. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:10, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe it is better to merge this article to the id.wikipedia so that doesn’t happen. The Omnibus Law on Job Creation and Indonesia omnibus law protests were made on two different articles, so it should be the same with the protests for revised Criminal Code aswell. The Protests in 2019 September do not mentioned specifically on criminal code bill only, but other controversial bills aswell. But this one is the one that gets most International Media attention. Eustatius Strijder (talk) 07:18, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're trying to say on the first sentence above.

I believe it is better to merge this article to the id.wikipedia so that doesn’t happen. ??? Ckfasdf (talk) 07:34, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

One of the greatest problem is that in the 2019 section of this article, WP:COPYWITHIN is violated. Another issue is that while 2019 protest and 2022 protest are protesting about the same thing, is it okay to "merge" them in one article? As 2019 section of this article also contains protests against another stuff (such as KPK rules) I propose it is merged to the 2019 protest article, while the rest could stand on its own. What do others think? ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 07:34, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Somewhat agree with SunDawn. IMO it'll better if we just remove 2019 section as it's clear violation. And this page can be dedicated to cover 2022 protest. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:41, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

@SunDawn, Merbabu, and Eustatius Strijder: Can we assume that we reached the consensus to 1) Remove 2019 Section as it's unnecessary duplicate (plus copyvio) and 2) Revamp the article to cover only 2022 protest and maybe move the article to "2022 Indonesia Criminal Code Protest". Ckfasdf (talk) 03:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Good for me. Makes sense, for the reasons noted. Although an alternative may be to merge it into 2023 Indonesian Criminal code as a reaction section. --Merbabu (talk) 03:59, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Proceed with merge

The only person objecting was the article creator, who it turns out was a sock of a blocked user.

User:Eustatius Strijder was a block-evading sock of blocked User:Bayu Fuller.

I therefore will be bold and merge. --Merbabu (talk) 11:56, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

@Merbabu: Just in case you've forgotten ... Klbrain (talk) 13:18, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 Done Klbrain (talk) 11:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Likely copy right violation

Hi all - I've rolled back Eustatius' inclusion of a likely copy violation image. rollback diff. I've also nominated it for deletion. Image here --Merbabu (talk) 08:51, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Activists Protesting against the Proposed Revised Criminal code changes 2022.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:52, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Massa tolakpengesahanrkuhp.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:07, 16 January 2023 (UTC)