Talk:2023 Bryansk Oblast raid

Neutral and factual?

The current article doesn't read as a neutral report, and e.g. the claim "Responsibility for the attack was claimed by the Russian Volunteer Corps, a unit made up of Russian nationalists fighting for Ukraine" doesn't seem to be adequately supported by independent reliable sources. Fram (talk) 15:47, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

https://antifascist-europe.org/russia/russian-volunteer-corps-denis-whiterex-is-back-in-business/ The Russian Volunteer Corps (RDK) is a new volunteer unit made up of far-right militants from Russia fighting on the Ukrainian side

https://www.newsweek.com/what-russian-volunteer-corps-hostages-taken-russia-ukraine-1785038 The Russian Volunteer Corps (RDK)—a grouping of Russians fighting for Ukraine against Moscow's ongoing invasion of the country

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/02/russia-ukraine-war-news/ The Russian Volunteer Corps, which calls itself a group of anti-Kremlin fighters, claimed responsibility for an attack Thursday on Russian territory

etc PLATEL (talk) 15:49, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Newsweek is in general not considered a reliable source, see Wikipedia:NEWSWEEK. Fram (talk) 15:56, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

ok

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-claims-ukrainian-sabotage-bryansk-putin-terrorist-attack-rcna73034 A group identifying itself as the anti-Putin Russian Volunteer Corps appeared to claim credit for the alleged attack PLATEL (talk) 16:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I think this should be merged as a section of the 2022 Western Russia attacks article, as it doesnt have enough coverage or RS supporting it. SnoopyBird (talk) 17:02, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

It happened like four hours ago, let's give it time for RS to pick it up and for information to trickle out. HappyWith (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

From the same link https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-claims-ukrainian-sabotage-bryansk-putin-terrorist-attack-rcna73034: "Little is known about the group and it was not immediately clear if it has any ties with the Ukrainian military. It was also unclear what action it took and what it may have been hoping to achieve. NBC News has not verified the claims or the authenticity of the videos." Bajamircea (talk) 23:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Also the Reuters link in the article https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-forces-are-fighting-ukrainian-sabotage-group-border-region-russian-news-2023-03-02/ mentions that "Reuters could not immediately verify the videos' authenticity.". Also https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64826028 "The alleged incident has not been independently verified."

The link to https://antifascist-europe.org/russia/russian-volunteer-corps-denis-whiterex-is-back-in-business/ precedes the event.

The article, as is currently, makes repeated claims about perpetrators and the profile of the perpetrators that are different even from the references provided in the article. Bajamircea (talk) 00:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Washington Post says "two fighters claiming to be members of a far-right Russian anti-Putin nationalist group fighting on Ukraine’s side in the war claimed responsibility, declaring “Death to the Kremlin tyrant” in a video filmed outside a medical clinic in the village of Lyuberchane, near Bryansk, close to the Ukrainian border. The group calls itself the Russian Volunteer Corps."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/02/bryansk-russia-attack-ukraine-saboteurs/

NY Times says "A Russian partisan group with ties to the Ukrainian military claimed on Thursday that it had briefly taken control of a small border village," and "The group that claimed responsibility, the Russian Volunteer Corps, is led by a Russian nationalist in exile who opposes Mr. Putin’s rule and has been fighting for the Ukrainian cause.

It is unclear whether the group operates with the assent of the Ukrainian government, as it claims."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/02/world/europe/russia-ukraine-group-village-control.html 2600:1700:3C00:3F40:D4F2:44A3:E899:3B4C (talk) 04:33, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

There are now many first-class Western sources that have spoken about it. We can remove the neutrality banner. Mhorg (talk) 12:40, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I made some changes to the article and removed the tag, what do you think about it now? —Alalch E. 23:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

"Attack"

I don't think it's entirely clear that this was an 'attack' yet, and the RVC themselves have said it wasn't one, that they didn't attack civilians, etc. Should this be moved to a more neutral descriptor while we wait for more info to trickle out? HappyWith (talk) 17:39, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, I think this would be better described as 2023 Bryansk Oblast incursion, as it seems the group just kinda went in, attacked a few towns and civilians, filmed videos, and dispersed. Not to mention, much of what happened is incredibly hazy information, and it is hard to know what went down exactly. Jebiguess (talk) 19:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure this shouldn't be described as an attack, as gunfire by a militia group during an armed conflict seems to meet the definition. However, even if the title is changed, the term "incursion" is not better; wikt:incursion defines it as "An aggressive movement into somewhere; an invasion." In other words, an incursion is an invasion, so there's no point in this title change. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:48, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

It wasn't just an incurson because domestic insurgents were involved per Nikitin, and the Financial Times article doesn't really bring this into question; in their voice: But the Russian Volunteer Corps’ attack appeared to confirm that Russian guerrillas were prepared to take up Kyiv’s cause—followed by a statement attributed to Nikitin how ...many of the 45 men involved in Thursday’s attack were part of a partisan underground network based inside the country.—Alalch E. 11:24, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I think "attack" is the corret therm. Mhorg (talk) 08:03, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Citing Novaya Gazeta

In the casualties section the reference is an article by the Novaya Gazeta(Russian opposition media agency) which references a report by TASS(Russian state media agency) which in turn references statements made by the governor of the Bryansk region. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to cite TASS as the reference? Kionen (talk) 15:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

It isn't entirely clear, but it looks like the cited Novaya Gazeta article is treating the event (of some kind that happened in that place and at that time) as something that actually occurred (so not a fictitious event in the sense that nothing out of the ordinary actually took place in the real world) and it seems to mention the casualties as their reporting of fact. That's at least how I read it. The 2+2 casualties number is also different from the official report which I've seen, and which is referenced by earlier secondary reports, saying that two people were killed and one person was injured. I'm honestly not sure. —Alalch E. 23:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Woah, I just noticed that the articles in russian and english are different I(as a native speaker of russian) can clearly see that in original article in russian they are clearly saying ("according to data from TASS").

And in the english version there is nothing about TASS. Kionen (talk) 08:00, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Great, that clears everything up. I have made the required changes. Thank you. —Alalch E. 09:05, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

antifascist-europe.org

@Asarlaí: Hello. In my view the source you removed is reliable. antifascist-europe.org is a publication of the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation, funded by the German government (https://antifascist-europe.org/imprint/ -- "funded by the Federal Foreign Office (AA)"), and its works are written by authors "coordinated by Bjørn Ihler". On Wikipedia, works by the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation are cited in ~80 articles (see search) and it doesn't seem that using this source has been controversial in the past. I would say that the website has editorial control ("Responsible for content according to § 18 Abs. 2 MStV: Franziska Albrecht ..."). Antifascism is a mainstream social current in Continental Europe, and this label does not denote strong partisan bias. What are your thoughts on restoring that reference? —Alalch E. 13:05, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't familiar with either the website or the RLF. On first glance it seemed to be the website of an Antifa group, which wouldn't be the most reliable source for accurate reports of military operations in a warzone. Feel free to re-add it, but the sentence is already backed by three other references, so I don't think there's a real need for it. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 14:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

This source is more valuable in the article about the group, but here it is also useful, as of all the sources used to verify the claim that the group is generally aligned with Ukraine, it makes this claim in the most outright way. So I think it's best to restore it, but I'm open to revising this. —Alalch E. 18:24, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Plekhovo

Not sure about what happened exactly but apparently these partisans again crossed into Russia [1], now into Plekhovo, Kursk Oblast. This is worth mentioning and the title ought to be changed. Super Ψ Dro 19:42, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: When you say "these partisans", is it the Russian Volunteer Corps? In either case they didn't do anything, and there aren't even Russian reports that there was any action (correct?). —Alalch E. 19:50, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure. I've not read a lot about it. A video was released with armed fighters in this village urging Russians to join their fight against Putin. While they didn't attack anything, these partisans theoretically should have never been able to cross the border. It was another incursion by armed soldiers. Super Ψ Dro 19:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

It's trivial for a small group to cross the border. There's a forest immediately south of Plekhovo. This is more of a Twitter event than anything. I don't see a strong enough connection to the Bryansk Oblast event. —Alalch E. 20:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC)