Talk:2023 Messenia migrant boat disaster

Location in title

Might Messinia be more usefully identifying and precise in the title than Peloponnese, which is a rather broad and sweeping geographical identifier? Messinia sums it up best in my mind, since it happened off the coast from Pylos, but that's also just a mere mention in most stories and the rescue operated out of Kalamata, so the overall story is somewhat pan-Messinian in nature. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Although the headlines that do mention a place in the title appear to prefer Pylos, e.g. [1], and that would have the added advantage of being significantly more concise than the present title, as well as compared with the Messinia option. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:18, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Relevance of NATO?

Some editors keep editing the Background section to include a mention of NATO's involvement in the 2011 Libyan civil war. There is no clear relation between NATO and the current crisis, or the background of the crisis. Is there any compelling reason to include a mention of NATO in the article? Gzr1899 (talk) 02:14, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Not really. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:16, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Unit of distance (from Pylos)

The ship sank around 50 miles (80 km) off the coast of Pylos [SNIP]. The distance should be given in kilometres first and then in miles in parentheses. However, should it be in nautical miles rather than (statute) miles? Perhaps both? —71.105.243.101 (talk) 10:23, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Most quoted sources seem to be leading with 80km, with parenthetical 50 miles, though Reuters began with 50 miles. However Greek official news agency AMNA consistently gives 47 nautical miles, southwest of Pylos [2][3][4]. Davidships (talk) 16:04, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Depth is similarly given in feet, an Imperial unit that none of the countries involved use. Rama (talk) 16:24, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

This is enWiki, and a high proportion of its readers use feet. indeed many do not generally use metres/meters. Davidships (talk) 19:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Only about 8% of the world's population do not use the metric system and in the US, the metric system is preferred for the American automotive and aerospace industries and mandated for NASA, the US military (except for a few US Navy units)and federal government business.

enWiki readers unfamiliar with metric units will have to drag themselves into the modern world. In any case. the cumulative number of metric system using enWiki English speakers from Canada, Europe, Oceania and India (the latter country using British English for science, government, industry and business purposes) considerably surpasses English speakers from non-metric nations - the Marshall Islands and others.2A01:4B00:AE0E:6200:DC7D:D977:5E79:92BB (talk) 01:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Civilian rescue efforts?

Several sources report that two civilian vessels took on migrants, should this be reflected? ABC news Bloomberg One Faraway (talk) 07:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think all rescue efforts should be added for context Κυπρομέδουσα (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Number missing

The precise-looking "568" for the number of missing is completely spurious. So far as I can see, it has been used by one Greek journalist, Vassilis Lambropoulos, and is nothing more that a subtraction of the currently-known number of those rescued (104) amd confirmed dead (78) from 750, the highest of the widely-varying estimates of the total number on board between 400 and "up to 750". I have removed the Guardian article from the citations for "568" missing as it make no mention of it, it only reports the police as saying "as many as 500" missing and that "Reports suggested up to 750" were on board. None of the quoted figures for total number on board seem to be more likely than any of the others so, for numbers in WP voice, it is better to have "persons on board not known, and estimates vary between 400 and 750", and not use any precise figure for the number missing. Davidships (talk) 20:53, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's clearly nonsense - 750 is no more that an upper guesstimate, and some journalist doing some back-of-napkin math based on that does not suddenly yield a figure that we can treat as somehow legit and viable for usage in Wikivoice. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I think that we are still recording the number of confirmed deaths (currently 82) separately from the missing (number unknown, unless there is data newly available not yet picked up). Some sources lump together those two groups as the "victims". Hopefully in due course there will much more precise estimates of the total of migrants, and at that time it will be possible to be more realistic about the number of "missing, presumed dead". In the meantime we do have some more official data from Pakistan, reported by [AlJazeera] and maybe elsewhere. Apparently 12 from Pakistan were rescued, and there are no reports of any confirmed Pakistani deaths - the authorities state 209 "victims", down from an earlier "over 300" (181 Pakistanis and 28 from Pakistan-controlled Kashmir), which should all be categorised for the moment as "missing". Davidships (talk) 19:58, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Reports of survivors that coast goard towing caused the boat to capsize.

Greetings. It is reported in the artice that some survivors state that the coast guard towed the boat causing it to capsize. Only one article reports this thing, without of course providing any interview of a named/unnamed person or even some more detail or clarification in this matter. Do you believe that this statement is valid enough to be contained in this article? Why would the coast guard cause such a thing for a boat that wasn't even going to Greece or even had departed from Greece and just happened to be found in international waters near Greece. What would be the realistic motivation behind it? I think it gives the wrong impression on the causes of the accident as well as the coast guard reaction to this. Regards. 176.58.193.115 (talk) 16:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Edit: https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/49754/greece-questions-continue-mounting-over-final-hours-before-migrant-ship-sank I found this source which is clearly superior to the one stated in this article and again, the only testimony of this thing is a Syrian 23year old person living in England who allegedly spoke with his cousin who was on the ship and told him that. There are numerous more testimonies by actual survivors who stated that the boat capsized because it was standing still on the sea surface without engine power till a larger boat came to rescue them.

The reports come from acceptable sources (thank you for the additional one), are included with due weight (just one sentence), and faithfully attributed. Your opinions about the causes of sinking are irrelevant here. Davidships (talk) 20:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

First of all, you could be more polite. But I guess I am asking too much from internet people.

Secondly, this is not an additional source. The first source is included in the second source that I posted word by word. You should easily tell if you have just read just one of the two soueces. By no standard academic or not, this is not a second source. But asking you to be reading the sources is probably a lot right?And finally I never expressed my opinion. You are expressing yours by clearly denying realism. The allegations may be biased, as the person who stated them has not even been in the accident site, let alone knowing how it happened.

Sorry for this but someone had to tell you that as you are not the only one that has taken the red pill as you may think. And don't worry I won't bother you no more with this pointless thread discussion. I will let you reign in your internet castle. Hasta la vista! 176.58.193.91 (talk) 23:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

SVG map

Eastern Mediterranean, showing Andriana's route and Kalamata, Messenia, where survivors were taken

This map was created following a request on WP:GL/M. Leaving it here for review and possible inclusion in the article (to replace the raster equivalent). M.Bitton (talk) 09:18, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Is it possible for the in-map texts, particularly Libya, Egypt, Tobruk, Greece, Athens amd Kalamata, to be much bigger, so that the map can be understood, without expanding it? It could be cropped (say, to the Tunisian border, and little in the east) if that helps scaling. Simple "showing" rather than "showcasing".

The raster map could be similarly improved, but also needs to concentrate more on the event, without the irrelevent distraction of Bulgaria.Davidships (talk) 07:05, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

@Davidships: thanks. I have increased the size of the text. Please let me know what you think (you might need to clear your cache to see the new map). M.Bitton (talk) 16:54, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

That's definitely better, though I would double again the point sizes of the font. Davidships (talk) 20:55, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Is it possible to label Messenia and/or Pylos? Thanks, Yadsalohcin (talk) 20:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there are already three labels in that area. Adding another one would clutter the map. M.Bitton (talk) 22:06, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

They have now been increased to a reasonable size (while avoiding to make the map unsightly). M.Bitton (talk) 22:04, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

For readability I think that that is much better. Thank you. As Pylos is very near Kalamata, and both towns are in the Messenia region, I agree that adding either separately would be too cluttering. However as it would be useful to connect the map to the article title, perhaps the legend should read "Eastern Mediterranean, showing Andriana's route and Kalamata, Messenia, where survivors were taken". Davidships (talk) 23:31, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

TBH, I didn't give much thought to the caption that I just copied from the article. Your suggestion is definitely an improvement (caption changed accordingly). M.Bitton (talk) 10:49, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Persons in the gr. government, acting on the surviving migrants

- eKathimerini.com: PM calls meeting on the rights of Pylos shipwreck survivors 16.06.2023 (PM = Prime Minister Ioannis Sarmas )

• Prime Minister Ioannis Sarmas
• State Minister Vassilios Skouris
• Civil Protection Minister Haralambos Lallousis
• Justice Minister Filippos Spyropoulos
• Shipping and Island Policy Minister Theodoros Kliaris
• the secretary general for anti-crime policy Konstantinos Papathanassiou
• the secretary general for the reception of asylum seekers Emmanouil Logothetis

-- WillkoCultEur2000 (talk) 13:32, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Solomon

Hi. What does the Biblical Solomon have anything to do with this event? Aminabzz (talk) 23:10, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Nothing. Thanks - de-linked and converted to red-link. Davidships (talk) 17:20, 14 December 2023 (UTC)