Talk:Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus

Requested move 2 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move to Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus. The only consensus for a move here is WP:NOYEAR. It's possible that "airstrike" is more precise but there isn't consensus to make that change; a second RM might be useful if people want that. Mike Selinker (talk) 01:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

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2024 Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus → 2024 Iranian consulate airstrike in Damascus – I think the article being retitled to 2024 Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus by User:Dylanvt is not appropriate. I suggest moving it back to 2024 Iranian consulate airstrike in Damascus:

• Is not a concise title (WP:Concise)
• If you look at List of attacks on diplomatic missions you'll see that a good portion of articles are named by a year, mission attacked, bombing, location of mission or year, attack, mission attacked, location of mission format. Very rarely is the assailant named in the title like it is in United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade.
• Israel is suspected/accused of the attack. The lede doesn't even mention this like 2023 Damascus airstrike. Currently, it only mentions Iran blaming the United States (and Israel in the infobox). So I fail to see how this is WP:Precise. Huge number of news sources are still running with Iran accuses. I can also see this becoming an issue later down the line and used for justification in future contentious titling arguments. It would be best to avoid that.

I suggest we move it back to the original title of 2024 Iranian consulate airstrike in Damascus or 2024 airstrike of the Iranian consulate in Damascus to maintain a sense of consistency and accuracy. Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 15:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 10:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Support: As it appears, the perpetrator is not mentioned in the titles of articles regarding attacks on embassies. For the sake of both consistency and conciseness, naming the perpetrator in the title itself is not useful. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 21:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

The example of United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was literally presented in the opening statement. It is in fact the case that state on state attacks normally do include the perpetrator. Titles without perpetrators are often a function unclear, non-state origins. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

That article is the only example which is presented. There is also the 2024 raid on the Mexican embassy in Ecuador which doesn't mention that the perpetrator is Ecuador in the title. In any case, why should specifically state-on-state attacks mention the perpetrator in the title, while those perpetrated by non-state actors aren't mentioned? In addition, when attacks are state-on-state but do not focus on the attack of a diplomatic mission, then the perpetrator isn't usually mentioned (for example: Bombing of Dresden, Attack on Pearl Harbor, Raid on the Medway). ―Howard • 🌽³³ 22:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support I agree with this suggestion @Classicwiki:. Dylanvt has not provided new sources that justify the change. See above on the Talk page for his 'supporting' sources and my critique. Tennisist123 (talk) 15:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC) Removed, non-ECP user commenting on ECP page move request. Ecrusized (talk) 20:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC) This comment was added before the page was ECP locked. Uncool Ecru sized109.159.166.128 (talk) 06:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Zinderboff(talk) 18:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support per all the reasons provided by nom. --GnocchiFan (talk) 19:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Query, why is this rm even necessary? Surely an admin could move the article back as undoing vandalism? Abductive (reasoning) 20:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I prefer a title that includes the fact that the airstrike was Israeli. It could be moved to 2024 Israeli airstrike on Iranian consulate in Damascus. Current title also seems fine to me. Ecrusized (talk) 20:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I agree. Both titles work for this. I think it's important to include the fact that the airstrike is Israeli, since removing it kind of seems to remove that link between the airstrike and the country itself. Werkwer (talk) 23:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC) The issue with Ecrusized's title is it goes back to considering this a consulate and not an embassy. This was an embassy. If someone bombed a truck at an embassy you'd still say they bombed the embassy - having a building part of the embassy compound get blown up is still the embassy. Damascus is the capital and any degradation of such is not reasonable or informative. Amyipdev (talk) 00:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC) I agree with your statement, however I disagree that it is a degradation to the capital itself. It was a mere mistake on my behalf for not looking into the technical language. Werkwer (talk) 13:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC) Oppose: It was an Israeli airstrike and it stays by the fact to keep it so. 2A02:3036:274:3B80:4CCA:9931:FEA4:E93B (talk) 22:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC) Removed, non-ECP user commenting on ECP page move request. Ecrusized (talk) 22:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Looking at the List of attacks on diplomatic missions, most of the perpetrators weren't polities like Israel. I would say that if we were to remove the perpetrator from the name (which I oppose), we should make it clear that Iran wasn't the perpetrator. Perhaps "2024 airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus", which is more consistent with other articles. Again, though, I think including the perpetrator is significant, especially in this case. BappleBusiness^[talk] 22:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Comment: After perusing that list for articles about specific attacks, the only one on the list that was perpetrated by a nation (unless I overlooked one, in which case my apologies) was the United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, whose article title is of the same format as the current title of this article, except for not including the year. There is also 2008 bombing of Indian embassy in Kabul, in which India and the NYT accuse Pakistan of being behind it, but they deny it, unlike here --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 22:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is widely accepted (and actually undisputed) that the bombing was by Israel. No need to remove or change anything.

Stephan rostie (talk) 00:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as per above and because the title '"2024 Iranian consulate airstrike in Damascus"' suggests that it was an Iranian attack against whatever consulate in Damascus instead of an attack against the Iran embassy by Israel, as acknowledged by all major international media and Israel itself. MaeseLeon (talk) 06:10, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per the above. Skitash (talk) 14:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Title is clear and precise, with no problems + per above. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Diffrent suggestion: move to Assassination of Mohammad Reza Zahedi. The main buildind of the embassy was not hort, so bombing of the embassy is missliding. useing consulate isnt beter, since thet makes it seem like it was in a separate are from the embassy and not the next buildind over. +, Zahedi and the rest were not diplomets, and there the center of the story.Pen Man (talk) 18:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC) Crossing out the comment due to ARBECR restrictions in force on this page. — kashmīrī TALK 20:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC) Only in very dystopian, post-international law speak can demolishing the entire consular services wing of an embassy be whittled down into a mere "assassination" - aside from being a clear POV framing. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support Iranian consulate airstrike in Damascus does not imply that Iran carried out the attack. Consulates are buildings, they can't attack anyone. Also the "fact" that Israel carried out the bombing, although widely alleged, is not established by evidence provided by Iran or Syria. The title should not be including an alleged perpetrator.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 19:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  NYT, Axios, WP, AP - all finger Israel in own voice. Who's denying it? Iskandar323 (talk) 19:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  Iranian consulate airstrike in Damascus does not imply that Iran carried out the attack. Consulates are buildings, they can't attack anyone.

  So what? We already know the consulate isn't performing the attack, because that would be a "consular airstrike".

  The problem is that "consulate Iranian airstrike" is grammatically forbidden, or at least unnatural. Thus "Iranian consulate airstrike" becomes idiomatic for both "an airstrike on an Iranian consulate" and "an Iranian airstrike on a consulate". Context (including that "buildings...can't attack anyone") is insufficient to distinguish between the two.

  Moreover: Iran is famous (in English-language sources, anyways) for attacking a diplomatic facility. Context-dependence here effects the incorrect interpretation. Bernanke's Crossbow (talk) 20:43, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• Note: My third bullet point was about the article at that exact time point in time. New information and statements have been made since then. Clearly Israel has made more comments about the strike. Obviously, the article on Wikipedia has changed as well.

My main point was about how it should follow the precedent of other articles as I mentioned in the second bullet point. See 2013 Iranian embassy bombing in Beirut as another use case example. See also, World Central Kitchen drone strikes. That attack happened on the same day as this airstrike (1 April 2024). Note how the title doesn't mean WCK conducted the drone strike. Additionally how the article isn't titled something like Israeli drone strike of World Central Kitchen.

I just know leaving the current title will led it to be justification in future contentious titling arguments, where things are not as easy to discern. This is why I suggest going with a simple title that follows previous naming examples.

Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 20:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

As noted above, it is exceptionally rare for embassies to be directly targeted by state actors, so the emphasis here is arguably warranted. I believe the last such event was the United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, which does indeed frame it in the same format. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per the majority of sources listed. Also, while Consular Sections at embassies are often called consulates, the bombed building was still part of the Iranian Embassy complex. The perpetrator has also been named in multiple sources and itself has not denied involvement. Finally, I'm unconvinced that "airstrike" would be better than bombing. — kashmīrī ^TALK 20:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm ok with bombing as well. Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 21:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Title representative of sources.  selfworm^Talk) 02:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  Reuters calls it an "Israeli strike"

  "US on high alert for Iran threat in region after Israeli strike in Syria"

   selfworm^Talk) 14:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per the above. RamHez (talk) 05:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support per above, airstrike is better than bombing as not every bombing is an airstrike. FortunateSons (talk) 09:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
• Move to Israeli airstrike on the Iranian embassy in Damascus We should remove the date (per WP:NOYEAR as there is no other Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus), and should change "bombing" to "airstrike" (as that is actually what happened). As per above, the rest of the article title is fine. Gödel2200 (talk) 12:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  This is also ok. The year is non-essential, and airstrike is potentially more precise, though it is not a big deal - a bombing it is; just of the aerial variety. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I actually think this is better. The year is superfluous per NOYEAR. Dylanvt (talk) 19:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  I like it, too. — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  I like this too. waddie96 ★ (talk) 13:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC). Crossing out as: I like the WP:NOYEAR suggestion, however prefer Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus as stated below. waddie96 ★ (talk) 13:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, this seems fine. Bernanke's Crossbow (talk) 20:30, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Oppose: being 'concise' does not mean removing pertinent information. Sometimes a title is longer than 6 words but still concise. Orangesclub Crossing out the comment due to ARBECR restrictions in force on this page. (talk) 23:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support: Should follow the WP:Concise and general pattern. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 02:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The suggested title is confusing, which word is described as Iranian, the "airstrike" or the "embassy"? The current title is certainly longer but much clearer in my opinion. Terbofast (talk) 06:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose or Move to Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus: Per above reasons, mainly since it shows the reader immediately that the bombing was Israeli, and per WP:NOYEAR suggestion by Gödel2200. waddie96 ★ (talk) 13:06, 5 April 2024 (UTC), edited waddie96 ★ (talk) 13:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support: Should follow the WP:Concise and general pattern. Additionally, the airstrike being carried out by Israel is a claim by Iran, and Wikipedia is not in place of pushing claims by one side without actual verification, there is a lot of misinformation, propaganda, and misleading information in relation to Israel and Iran. The title cannot make such a claim in wikivoice. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 16:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  In CNN ref 1 "Four unnamed Israeli officials acknowledged that Israel carried out the attack” and that "the US’ assessment was that Israel had carried out the airstrike.” Therefore, I’d say it’s more than a 'claim' by just Iran that the bombing was carried out by Israel. waddie96 ★ (talk) 16:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  This needs to be looked at in the wider context of reporting on the issues in the area and that not all previously accepted reliable journalism is actually reliable. Also the current sources in the article state "claimed by Iran".

  This is not my OR this is other sources stating the unreliable nature of media reporting Vox, Africa News, NPR

  PicturePerfect666 (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Oppose: I agree that the current title could be more concise, but the suggested title may be misleading, not only it does not clearly state the perpetrator, but who the victim is also not abundantly clear. While some iconic events like The Iranian Embassy siege don't need neither the year nor the perpetrators in the title, this event is more similar to this article: February 2024 United States airstrikes in Iraq and Syria which clearly states the year, the perpetrator and the targeted areas. Additionally, addressing some people's claims that Israel may not have been the perpetrator, IDF themselves took the credit for this airstrike [1][2]. LatekVon (talk) 18:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC) Non-EC user

• Propose alternative 2024 airstrike of Iranian consulate in Damascus. While I do not agree with point 3 of nom, I do find WP:CONCISE a good point. I also agree with LatekVon's question on the nom's clarity. NasssaNser 07:23, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: in bombings by individuals or small relatively unknown groups, WP:COMMON, referring to the event in a conversation, would be something like “when the embassy got bombed (by a terrorist group)”, but when it’s a well-known actor like Hamas or Israel, we say “when Israel bombed the Iranian Embassy”. Just as we do for the October 7 attacks. The event’s importance is not that the building “got bombed” but rather that Israel bombed an Iranian Embassy.Keizers (talk) 19:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose alternative, the building was part of the Iranian Embassy, not a standalone consulate. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose/propose alternative: "2024 Iranian consulate airstrike in Damascus" is misleading, as it suggests that Iran performed the airstrike. "2024 airstrike of the Iranian consulate in Damascus" is insufficiently concise and uses the wrong preposition: a better title would be "2024 airstrike on the Iranian Damascus consulate". Bernanke's Crossbow (talk) 20:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose alternative, the building was part of the Iranian Embassy, not a standalone consulate. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: my last here as it looks like oppose/alt is going to be the path forward as of now. Would like to point out 2024 attack on the Mexican embassy in Quito as another contemporary article. Not saying apples to apples here, but still an example of state acting on another state's diplomatic mission. Classicwiki (talk) If you reply here, please ping me. 21:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Well, the current title is pretty clear who did the bombing. I think the proposed one is too ambiguous and you don't know if it was Israel or ISIS or the FSA from just the title alone. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 04:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Support change , I mean guys there is a really big mistake here in understanding! The building is not the embassy building! It's a building next to the embassy building, I mean just look at the pictures, you can see the fence of the embassy does not include the bombed building but encloses the embassy compound, so the building is just next to it but not part of the embassy. Also consulates are always in different cities to the location of the embassy building! If Italy has an embassy in Cairo it would have a consulate in Alexandria but Italy wouldn't have a consulate in Cairo. So this is a big mistake. Titlt should be: 2024 Israeli strike of Iranian building adjacent to the Iranian embassy in Damascus. I know the name sounds bad but it's accurate. ElLuzDelSur (talk) 08:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Revert to status quo. It's possible there are better titles than "2024 Iranian consulate airstrike in Damascus", but the most important aspect is whether we refer to it as a consulate or an embassy, as that is the part that could result in us violating WP:NPOV. Reliable sources consistently refer to this as an airstrike on the consulate; searching for "Airstrike Damascus", of the first ten results:
  1. Sky News; "Embassy" - "suspected Israeli airstrike on Iran’s embassy in Damascus, Syria."
  2. SBS; "near Iran's Embassy" - "attack near Iran's Embassy in Damascus, assumed to be by Israel"
  3. Al Jazeera; "consulate" - "Israeli fighter jets fired missiles at the Iranian consulate in Syria’s capital Damascus earlier this week"
  4. CNN; "consulate" - "The airstrike destroyed the consulate building in the capital Damascus" "The consulate building, which includes the ambassador’s residence and is located next to the Iranian Embassy, is considered sovereign Iranian territory. "
  5. AP; "consulate" - "An Israeli airstrike that demolished Iran’s consulate in Syria"
  6. Iran International; "embassy" - "The European Union on Wednesday called for restraint after an airstrike on the Iranian embassy in Damascus killed seven Revolutionary Guards."
  7. ABC; "consulate" - "after a suspected Israeli air strike on Iran's consulate"
  8. The Guardian; "consulate" - "Israeli war planes destroyed the Iranian consulate in Damascus"
  9. Reuters; "consulate" or "embassy compound" - "at its embassy compound in Damascus", "which destroyed a consular building adjacent to the main embassy complex"
  10. VOA; "consulate" - "that destroyed the Iranian consulate in Damascus, Syria"
• Six sources use "consulate", two use "embassy" including one whose reliability is unclear, and the other two use other terminology; it would be inappropriate for us to do differently. BilledMammal (talk) 08:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Consulate is a name traditionally used for the offices occupied by an embassy's consular section; however, those offices are still a part of the embassy. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's more complicated than that - but the only thing that is relevant here is that reliable sources consider "consulate" more accurate, and I don't see any bases for us to reject their assessment. BilledMammal (talk) 09:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Sources repeat it one after another; usually after agency reports; that doesn't mean we should blindly copy them when incorrect and when we have plenty of correct sources. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Diplomatic and consular premises: UN [3]

  Consular Section: Kazakhstan MFA [4], South African MFA [5], Iran MFA [6] (they know best what was located there)

  Embassy: The Atlantic Council [7], The Telegraph [8], TRT [9], RFE [10] (also consulate), Bloomberg [11], DW [12] and many others. Your claim that only two sources use "embassy" is plainly incorrect. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  My claim is that of a relatively random sample of ten articles about this incident, only two used "embassy". Without knowing your methodology, we have no way of knowing whether your sources are a representative sample - what was your methodology?

  Further, reviewing your sources, they don't say what you claim they say:

  1. The Atlantic Council - "embassy annex"
  2. The Telegraph - "consular building" and "embassy"
  3. TRT - "embassy", but considered unreliable for this topic at WP:RSP
  4. RFE - "consulate" (only uses "embassy" in the headlines, which are unreliable per WP:HEADLINES)
  5. Bloomberg - "embassy"
  6. DE - "consulate" (only uses "embassy" in the headlines, which are unreliable per WP:HEADLINES)

  BilledMammal (talk) 11:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  The consular mission in a capital is an embassy. An embassy provides consular services, which means it can have a dedicated consular wing/building that can be referred to as a 'consulate', but is still part of the embassy compound. The efforts by some media outlets to label this as a strike on a 'consulate' instead of the embassy is quite clearly an attempt to diminish what is an egregious violation of the Vienna convention on diplomatic missions, and this sidestepping language is a disservice to their readers, as it would be to ours were it replicated here. Calling this a strike on an embassy is just calling a duck a duck; replacing this with 'consulate' is shenanigans. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  I couldn't express it better. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's not our place to decide that reliable sources are incorrect; we don't WP:RGW. BilledMammal (talk) 11:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  This falls into the category of WP:COMMONSENSE. Capitals have embassies; other cities have consulates. That a handful of sources seem to be confused about this is neither here nor there. No need to pander. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed, that's the rough idea. Granted, sometimes (albeit very rarely) embassies are not located in the capital city, or consular sections are located in another part of the city than the main embassy complex, or there are only honorary consulates but no embassy in the country. But a typical setup, and one in place in the Iran/Syria instance, is the one you described. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Oppose to provide greater clarity as to who caused the attack. The proposed title is less clear and given the unfortunately short attention spans of many would cause confusion or even misattribution of the attacks. Amyipdev (talk) 15:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC) Not Extended Confirmed

Oppose It's almost beyond doubt who and what the perpetrators and targets are respectively. --Masssly (talk) 15:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I wouldn't say "almost". It's extremely clear who the perpetrators and targets are. Amyipdev (talk) 17:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose It was done by Israel so i don't know why we should mention it Braganza (talk) 09:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support or support a similar title per nom. I don't like 'bombing' for precision reasons. 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 18:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
was it not a bombing? And it is an embassy... Amyipdev (talk) 18:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC) @Amyipdev Well an Airstrike is an attack carried out by a plane (I like planes!), which could include a bombing Embassy and consulate have similar meanings, but embassy usually means the diplomatic building in a capital city and consulate one in a non-capital city. 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 20:13, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Damascus is the capital of Syria last time I checked... and the airstrike did include a bombing afaik, so it is still correct. Amyipdev (talk) 21:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC) A bombing could include a terrorist attack (e.g.), I did say a similar title 🇺🇲JayCubby✡ please edit my user page! Talk 22:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. I was looking for this article, and didn't know its title, so I searched "2024 Israeli" and it showed up. The current title is much more natural than the opening proposal (or NasssaNser's alternate proposal). Concision shouldn't come at the cost of making the article harder to find. Also, I suggest creating a redirect at "2024 Israeli strike on[...]", so that (equally natural) partial query gets autocompleted too. Also agree with kashmiri's reasoning above on "embassy" > "consulate". DFlhb (talk) 23:06, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose the title is clearly written. I was originally more in favor of "consulate" although I agree with kashmiri as well, and would also note that "bombing" is more WP:CONCISE than "airstrike". Would also agree with waddie96's suggestion to move to "Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus" per WP:NOYEAR. Aquabluetesla (talk) 02:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
• Move to Israeli airstrike on the Iranian embassy in Damascus per Gödel2200 and the others who agreed that this is the correct title. It is WP:BLUE that this was done by Israel, the year is not needed (concise) due to it being a unique and harrowing event, airstrike is more precise than bombing, and consulate is misleading due to it being adjacent to the embassy (itself coming within an inch of being destroyed). "Bombing of the embassy" does not work because only the adjacent building was actually bombed/destroyed, whereas the complex in its entirety can be said to have been struck. Havradim leaf a message 02:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Comment What would you (and anyone else) think about holding a standing policy on this article that if another bombing in another year occurs, the year is added back? Amyipdev (talk) 03:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC) I would agree to that, yet I shudder at the possibility of another occurrence. Havradim leaf a message 05:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC) I do too, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised... who knows, the year is still young, it's unfortunately possible we could have another one this year. Amyipdev (talk) 06:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose skarz (talk) 04:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Israel, WikiProject Palestine, WikiProject Arab world, WikiProject International relations, WikiProject Iran, WikiProject Syria, WikiProject Death, and WikiProject Military history/Post-Cold War task force have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 23:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: the proposed title is potentially misleading, as if Iran has bombed itself. The suggested change of "embassy" to "consulate" is a bit of an obfuscation; the consular building was part of the embassy compound, so the present title is correct. See for example: Debris is cleared away after an Israeli attack on the Iranian embassy compound in Damascus, Syria, on Monday. (Ravid, Barak (1 April 2024). "U.S. tells Iran it "had no involvement" in Israel strike". Axios.) The only worthwhile change would be to remove "2024" as no prior strike on the embassy has occurred. --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current title is clear and sound. Cfls (talk) 22:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Assuming that current info on the page is correct (i.e. an Israeli airstrike destroyed the Iranian consulate annex building adjacent to the Iranian embassy in Damascus) the building was not Iranian embassy. Hence the title is misleading and should be changed as suggested or to something else. My very best wishes (talk) 23:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Hello User:Mike Selinker. Thanks for your decision above. Could you please revisit it a bit as it seems to have a few issues. Firstly, it's a consulate and not embassy. Second, there are just allegation that it was done by Israel and we are stating it as a fact in the article's name. Please let me know if I should write it in some other place (and please feel free to move/update/delete my comment) but I'd appreciate your assistance here. Thank you. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 12:56, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
  • I hear you. As I said below, I think it's smart for there to be a new RM for a new name, especially on the issue of embassy vs. consulate.--Mike Selinker (talk) 02:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 April 2024

In Legality section of article, change "citation needed" to:

Diplomatic premises, like homes and schools, are considered "civilian objects" under international law, and they are not permissible as targets unless they are used for a military purpose. Diplomatic buildings are entitled to further protections from attack or other interference by the host country under international customary law, codified in the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations and the 1963 Convention on Consular Relations, but in this case these do not apply to Israel. Unrefined Gasoline (talk) 18:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that is an appropriate source. A source specific to this strike would be appropriate; otherwise, this is original research. Zanahary (talk) 01:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @Unrefined Gasoline. @Zanahary Here a link about the actual stryke regarding this matter: [13] where International Right Expert affirm that:

“So attacks on diplomatic compounds carry particular weight, both in law and in the popular imagination. But in this case, experts say, Israel can likely argue that its actions did not violate international law’s protections for diplomatic missions. Here’s why.
The embassy complex was not on Israeli soil..

and

“Israel is a third state and is not bound by the law of diplomatic relations with regard to Iran’s Embassy in Syria,” said Aurel Sari, a professor of international law at Exeter University in the United Kingdom.

This make a legal difference if compared with the Iran hostage crisis where Iran was the “receiving State” of the US Embassy in Teheran and violeted the Vienna Convention. Nicola Romani (talk) 12:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Of all the legal experts in the world, of all the think tanks, they've only managed to quote a (Jewish?) associate professor at a second-league UK university[14], additionally one who argues that military necessity overrides the legal requirement of protecting civilians in an armed conflict?[15][16][17] And now a global encyclopaedia is to be built on his opinion? — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I've struck out the query as to whether the author of that piece is Jewish or not, which is immaterial, and (offensively insinuating). But the source from the NYTs is patently mediocre, a whitewash job mugged up within a day of the strike, with no broad consulting of legal and political science authorities. The two opinions cited are from a specialist in the defence world (predictable) and the Israeli legal scholar. There is no attempt whatsoever to caste the net broader, though it would have been simple even by that date to show that a good many scholars and authorities of greater notability questioned the legality of what Israel did. The standard view was that Israel bombed an embassy compound in Syria, that embassy compounds are under particular protection and must not be attacked.

The cherrypicked argument by the pro-Israeli scholar was that in so far as the convention deals with the relations between a receiving state (Syria) and a state whose presence is received on its soil (Iran), Israel as a third state is not affected by the convention. (the Ukraine could bomb the Russian embassies in Byelorussia or anywhere else in the world because, the (il)logic runs, the Convention only protects Russian property in such countries from any attack by the receiving states, but not from countries in conflict with Russia)

That view is eccentric to the mainstream. If the Convention is read that way, it would mean that any embassy in any country could be struck by a missile from any third party if the third party regarded that embassy as hostile to its own state. That simply empties the Conventions of the meaning they have always been taken to bear, since it entails the proposition that embassies are not intrinsically inviolable. Which is absurd. Article 22 states that embassies are 'inviolable', no equivocation. Nishidani (talk) 12:16, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Reading "Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 18 April 1961", it appears that Article 22 only applies to the receiving state:

The term ‘inviolability’ as defined by Article 22 VCDR means that the premises of the mission, their furnishings and other property thereon and the means of transport of the mission shall, in line with the parallel principle of “omnis coactio abesse a legato debet”, be immune from any compulsory measure by the receiving State. From this it follows that the inviolability of the mission rules out all types of sovereign acts by the receiving State, including, inter alia, service of process.

"Diplomatic Law : Commentary on the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations" says something similar:

Inviolability in modern international law is a status accorded to premises, persons, or property physically present in the territory of a sovereign State but not subject to its jurisdiction in the ordinary way. The sovereign State — under the Vienna Convention the receiving State — is under a duty to abstain from exercising any sovereign rights, in particular law enforcement rights, in respect of inviolable premises, persons, or property. The receiving State is also under a positive duty to protect inviolable premises, persons, or property from physical invasion or interference with their functioning and from impairment of their dignity.

Less focused works, such as "Diplomatic Asylum", do the same.

I don't believe this is absurd. The protections under the Vienna Convention function because there is a recourse for the receiving state for the misuse of the premises by the sending state; the revocation of the permit of use. A third state does not have this recourse, and under your interpretation would have no recourse. To take your hypothetical to its logical extreme, your interpretation would forbid Ukraine from striking a munitions factory that Russia opened in its embassy in Belarus for the purpose of supplying their forces in Ukraine, and would forbid Ukraine from striking a Russian military headquarters in Belgorod if Russia and North Korea both claimed that the Russian military headquarters were the North Korean embassy.

I've also added a second source which says the same thing as the New York Times article. BilledMammal (talk) 16:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Every embassy in the world has military attachés. Here's Israel's in its Washington Embassy. You know that, the world knows that. Answer the points below about your very strong POV pushing which uses wikivoice to assert essentially an Israeli POV. Nishidani (talk) 16:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The presence of a military attaché isn't sufficient to establish that a site is being used for military purposes. In addition, I feel you missed the point of my comment, which was that reliable sources appear to support the position that inviolability only applies to the receiving state, and not to third states. BilledMammal (talk) 16:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Yep. Besides, the concept of inviolability of diplomatic premises (and personnel) has been an integral part of customary international law for millennia as far as I know, even if the Vienna Convention only codifies the obligations of the receiving state.

Worth noting that the Convention deliberately does not offer exceptions from inviolability for the host state.[18] — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:45, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

This is what user talk pages are for. Unrelated to improving this article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Kashmiri, what?? Zanahary (talk) 16:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC) What what? Yes, the author writes: [A]n attack is not disproportionate where the attacker anticipates civilian harm and deliberately proceeds with the attack in the expectation or knowledge that the anticipated civilian harm will materialise, provided that this harm is not excessive. [...] The bottom line is, contrary to what the Special Rapporteur suggests, that LOAC [Law of Armed Conflict] does not preclude causing civilian harm intentionally and as a first order effect in the context of an attack directed against a military objective, provided that such harm is not excessive in relation to the military advantage expected and all feasible measures are taken to avoid or in any event minimize it. Going by this logic, a mere expectation of military advantage would suffice to make targeting civilians lawful, which I hope all agree would be highly questionable (because the attacker will always argue that any chance of eliminating enemy combatants is a sufficient reason to target civilians, and that it, the attacker, has of course taken "all precautions" but unfortunately...). In all this legal nitpicking the author seem to forget the larger picture; the intent; the why the Geneva Conventions came to exist in the first place – which was to protect all those remaining hors de combat precisely against such attacks. Anyhow, this is not the place to argue with the author. Just enough that I don't believe this lone view would give justice to the rather complex matter of the applicability of various provisions of international law to the Damascus attack. — kashmīrī TALK 17:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC) Kashmiri, I am talking about your raising that the author might be Jewish. What is up with that? Zanahary (talk) 21:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC) Can you shed any light @Kashmiri? Zanahary (talk) 02:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC) Maybe I shouldn't make such explicit suggestions, but I always wonder how media select "experts" to comment on their articles. — kashmīrī TALK 14:50, 26 April 2024 (UTC) Why did you bring up that she may be Jewish? Please be clear. Zanahary (talk) 18:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 23:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 9 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Toadette^Edit! 14:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

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Iranian consulate airstrike in Damascus → Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus – The current title could be interpreted as either an airstrike by Iran or on Iran; the proposed title makes the topic clearer. It is also widely reported and WP:DUE to include the fact that Israel launched the airstrike. BilledMammal (talk) 06:13, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: As I mentioned in the previous RM, the form "<country> <attack> of/on the <country> <diplomatic mission> in <city>" is consistent with the format of United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, which unless I am mistaken was the only other state-on-state attack with its own article in the List of attacks on diplomatic missions prior to the 2024 raid on the Mexican embassy in Ecuador (which occurred only 4 days after this attack, and is currently in an RM to move to this title format as well). Note that the US bombing uses the word of instead of on as this proposal suggests, though imo it is more grammatically correct to use "on" if "airstrike" is used rather than "bombing". --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 11:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support 2024 Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus, we should add the year which wasn't restored after the overturn of the previous RM with the year, per WP:NCWWW and the Consistency WP:CRITERIA. My second choice is BilledMammal's proposed option (consistency WP:CRITERIA). Beyond the [[naming convention|[[WP:NCWWW]]]] that states we should have a "when" in the title in the majority of cases for events, I think we also ought to have the year because Israeli strikes on Iranian or Iranian-linked targets in Syria have been numerous: see Iran–Israel conflict during the Syrian civil war, but also the more recent 2024 Iranian strikes in Israel and 2024 Israeli strikes on Iran which feature the year. Pilaz (talk) 21:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  Those feature the year because strikes between those countries have happened in other years and/or are likely to do so in the future as well, whereas state-on-state attacks on diplomatic missions are all but unheard of --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 22:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  There was at least one other, and indeed it doesn't need a year: United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:51, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  Besides which, it was already moved to the current title because a consensus was found to remove the year, so that's not really something we're supposed to relitigate for a while anyway --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 10:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

  The reason why United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade doesn't have a year is because it was a historically significant event in Sino-American relations, which is the only reason why WP:NOYEAR applies. But I'm really eager to learn how much historical perspective we can get from an event from a few months ago, if you're happy to provide it to me. List of embassy attacks mostly features the year, and correctly so, since it's following WP:NCWWW. Pilaz (talk) 13:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

• Move to alternative title Israeli airstrike on the Iranian diplomatic mission in Damascus, given the lack of consensus whether this was an embassy or consulate (see earlier discussions). — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  I would prefer keeping "consulate", as that is how reliable sources tend to describe the location, per my evidence in the first RM and Galamore's evidence in the second RM. BilledMammal (talk) 02:02, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

  Well, there was explicitly no consensus to have the article at "consulate" – the recent rename was on a technicality, not consensus. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The new name would give more information without getting too much longer. Professor Penguino (talk) 04:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose proposed title. Instead I propose Israeli bombing of the Iranian diplomatic mission in Damascus. This is consistent with United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, as mentioned by Gimmethegepgun above. We don't appear to have consensus on whether this was an embassy or consulate.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support, per the rationale given by the proposer. However, I would prefer to omit 'the', i.e. I would prefer Israeli airstrike on Iranian consulate in Damascus. This is because a country can have more than one consulate in the same country, or even in the same city (although I'm not aware of cases of the latter). Also, it is a little more concise. Other articles about attacks on consulates vary on whether they include 'the'. Ones that omit 'the' include 2013 attack on U.S. consulate in Herat, 2013 bombing of Indian consulate in Jalalabad, 2014 attack on Indian consulate in Herat and Bombing of French consulate in West Berlin. As to the alternative suggestions of including the year, using 'bombing' instead of 'airstrike', or 'diplomatic mission' instead of 'consulate', these can be pursued in a subsequent move request, if desired. Nurg (talk) 05:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Valid point – actually Iran has several consulates in Syria. However, there are significant doubts on whether the building in Damascus was a consulate at all (see earlier discussions) – it's certainly not listed as such by the Syrian MFA. Hence I've proposed to use the term diplomatic mission instead. — kashmīrī ^TALK 20:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to: Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus as per WP:PRECISE. --Nicola Romani (talk) 22:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support Even if there is no consensus on whether it's consulate or embassy (which I don't see here), that's not a valid reason to use neither. Our mandate is to follow usage in RS, as best as we can. That means when it's close sometimes we inadvertently go with the 2nd most common instead of the most common; that's okay. But I agree with Nurg that Israeli airstrike on Iranian consulate in Damascus, omitting the "the", is even better: just as PRECISE and more CONCISE. --В²C ☎ 03:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove extra word

"Israel told the U.S. that if a retaliatory attack by Iran would prompt a robust response from Israel". 200.12.168.26 (talk) 20:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed. Thank you for raising. Nurg (talk) 02:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)