Talk:2024 Southport stabbing

Christian or not Christian?

@MIDI If you're going to remove one assertion that Axel Rubakubana is a Christian from the article, should you not remove the other one for the sake of competence? As a general note & point of learning/education to all WP Editors - when making an edit in an article, always check if there are multiple occurrences of the same thing in said article. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 21:22, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

It was a cromulent edit. As described in their edit summary, Midi removed an assertion that the police stated that Axel Rubakubana is a Christian. The police released their intial somewhat limited statement in attempt to counter misinformation. Other sources, i.e. not the police, have (since) added that information. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 21:37, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

You had me at cromulent. I accept you are correct and I was wrong. I am also delighted to discover that cromulent is now acknowledged as an actual word. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 21:53, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

What is the origin of cromulent? NamelessLameless (talk) 05:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

[1]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:22, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not about that though. Is he Christian or not? And based on Wikipedia rules you will need to have a reliable source for that. NamelessLameless (talk) 05:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

At the time our content only talked about a Christian household. The Independent (fact checking dept) says, "In truth, Axel Rudakubana was described by neighbours as a “quiet choir boy” who comes from a family that regularly attends a Christian church.". At this time we don't say he is a Christian, nor probably should we, at least unless we hear something more direct, substantial, or official. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 08:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Christian - The suspect is not a Muslim. Please, end these discussion: "Born to Rwandan parents, the Liverpool Echo reported neighbours as saying that the family are “heavily involved with the local church”, and that they would often hear singing from their house." (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/axel-rudakubana-southport-suspect-who-b2589527.html) --93.211.210.21 (talk) 11:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

There's no suggestion here that he is Muslim. Stating that he came from a Christian household (a family "heavily involved with the local church") does not necessarily make him Christian, though, and it would be too much of a stretch for us to call him such. MIDI (talk) 11:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Sure, a “quiet choir boy” from a "Christian household" is what? An illegal, undocumented, Muslim, immigrant, or what? *nuts* He is a native born Christian boy. --93.211.210.21 (talk) 11:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

False dichotomy – not saying "he's Christian" is not the same as saying "he's Muslim": again, no-one in this discussion is saying he's Muslim. The source that uses the phrase "quiet choir boy" appears to attribute it to "neighbours" – should we accept that as a reliable source? If you want to state that he (rather than his family as a whole) is a Christian, you need find a source that explicitly states that, avoiding WP:SYNTH. As other users have pointed out, the previous wording was something along the lines of "he was brought up in a Christian household", but that also seemed to rely on neighbours as its source. I have seen no source that would verify saying anything more than the beliefs of the family as a whole, if at all. Of course, if you know of any sources that can potentially be used, please offer them up here. MIDI (talk) 12:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

No you are trying to be wp-legalistic! A 'clingy choir boy' from Christian family is what? A Muslim? → https://www.ghanacelebrities.com/2024/08/01/axel-muganwa-rudakubana-religion-nationality-wiki-who-is-axel-rudakubana/ from Ghana! → "The religion of the potential Southport stabbing suspect was a big deal as right-wingers on social media alleged the attacker was a Muslim. False reports claimed a Muslim had been arrested for the murders and riots even broke out in parts of the UK with mosques et al being attacked and clashes flaring up between rioters and law enforcement. However, the religion of Axel Rudakubana puts that claim to bed as his family is Christian." --91.54.4.195 (talk) 13:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The purported religion of the purported perpetrator's purported family puts nothing to bed. The issue is not anyone's religion, it's the three murdered children, the eight injured children, and the many other people who witnessed the heinous carnage or will have live forever with its consequences. Religion is a nebulous concept at the best of times: and moreso if you stop to consider that a person (any person) can (according to certain religions) become a member or exponent of a religion simply by thinking it or uttering certain words. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 22:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

New photo added

Hello, I have included a new photo of the flowers and gifts left near Hart Street. The photo was taken by me (as I was part of the group who placed the flowers in water and rearrange them so onlooks could see), so show the outpouring of local feelings after the event. If the caption does not meet Wikipedia standard can you let me know, or edit it respectfully? Thank you ✠ Emperor of Byzantium ✠ (talk) 16:35, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the addition of the image, it's the only relevant free-use image we seem to have of the local area, so thank you for contributing it. I've cleared up the caption to better comply with WP:NOTMEMORIAL, WP:TONE, and MOS:CAPSUCCINCT. MIDI (talk) 16:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello MIDI, Thank you for your understanding and kind words. I wasn't sure how to word the caption of this image, as this event has deeply affected all of us, especially those with family and friends impacted by this tragedy, including my own. I was initially concerned about your feedback on the edit, but I needn't have been, and I'm grateful you taking the time to leave a positive message. Thank you! ✠ Emperor of Byzantium ✠ (talk) 18:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Lovely. Just lovely to see a photograph of the amazing tributes to Elsie Dot, Alice and Bebe. I read on BBC that local people take the teddies and cards left for Elsie Dot, Alice and Bebe inside their houses if rain is forecast and then painstakingly put them back out when the weather has dried up. I cried when I read that. It is overwhelming to see the kindness of people over the deaths of Elsie Dot, Alice and Bebe. The little girls murdered in Southport. It was horrible to see so many people from various backgrounds attempt to co-opt their murders to satisfy their own personal failings as human beings. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 20:35, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it's time to archive this discussion @MIDI? It's been live for a few hours - probably run its course and better to wipe it away from public view like you did with the rest of this WP:TALK page? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 22:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@Flusapochterasumesch: I'm looking forward to you showing me where I previously wiped the rest of this talk page from public view... MIDI (talk) 07:04, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Ew, Byzantium. Inkscape Salafi (talk) 14:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Far right?

What is far right and why we label protesters as far right? 176.30.181.205 (talk) 07:26, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

All that happens on Wikipedia is that articles reflect what is said in the sources provided. If you read the various articles referenced in the riot section, you'll see repeated mentions in those references to right-wing and far-right people/websites/media inciting and participating in the violence. Wikipedia should maintain a strict neutral point of view WP:NPOV If you think this is not happening then please call out where in the article that is not happening. 10mmsocket (talk) 07:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

You only see them referred to as far right from left leaning sources.

Every source that is centrist calls them anti illegal immigration riots.

You are not saying what sources call them you are being selective.

This is meant to be a source of information not of propaganda from one side or the other.

Do better 92.232.58.50 (talk) 10:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

So fix it. Do better! 10mmsocket (talk) 13:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I've seen no credible sources stating that the rioting was 'anti illegal immigration'. Anti immigration, possibly, if you define that loosely enough, but considering that the targets attacked by these thugs included hostels housing asylum seekers (who aren't there illegally - you can't claim asylum without informing the authorities of who you are) along with mosques, shops and private property, none of which had any real relationship to illegal immigration, and only some of which even had any connection with people descended from legal migrants, the suggestion is absurd. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:54, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

British or not British?

Being born in England/Wales does not automatically grant you citizenship if your parents are not British. The article states that Axel Rudakubana is a 'British citizen' born to Rwandan parents. I have not seen any news articles that corroborate that he is a British citizen, just that he was born in Wales to Rwandan parents. This information does not appear to be in any of the cited news articles in the References section. I think a citation demonstrating this alleged fact should be added or a `[citation needed]` should be added to the article's claim that he is a British citizen for clarity as this is an important discussion point. --Simoncrowder (talk) 19:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The Independent referenced with title starting "Fact checked:..." states that he "was born in Cardiff and is a British citizen." However no other reference, nor any articles I found online, confirm that he is British, only that he was born in Cardiff to Rwandan parents - which as you say does not automatically mean you are a British citizen. Given that clear imbalance in the sources I think it's better to change to what is stated by the majority of sources. I'll do it now. 10mmsocket (talk) 20:42, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how hard you were looking, 10mmsocket, but there are multiple RS calling him a British citizen: The Independent (as mentioned), [2] Washington Post, El Pais, Wigan Today. Some sources don't comment on his citizenship, but I can't see any saying he is not a British citizen or saying he has any other citizenship. Bondegezou (talk) 13:19, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry but every major British source avoids saying he is a British citizen. Show me one other than the single Independent article that does. 10mmsocket (talk) 13:30, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:V says nothing about sources having to be in the same country as the event being reported on. I have given you multiple sources that meet WP:RS, including a second UK one. Please don't WP:EDITWAR and please don't invent rules for sources. I suggest you revert yourself. Bondegezou (talk) 13:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Two articles from the same US publication state he is British - are there more. It is more telling that the one single article in the Independent is the only UK-published reliable source that states he is a British citizen, while all other news outlets describe him as British-born, which is not the same as being a British citizen. I would say therefore that there is a massive weight in favour of describing him as British-born - until more article are published and it becomes clear from multiple reliable sources, not just two, that he is a citizen. 10mmsocket (talk) 13:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Have you read what I've said? Why are you saying just two? I've also given you an El Pais article, and a Wigan Today article. You can also add "Where is Tommy Robinson? Far right activist chills in resort in Cyprus amid UK riots" in The Times of India (August 5, 2024).

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Some sources say "British-born" and don't comment on his citizenship, but that's not evidence that they believe he is not a UK citizen. Lots of articles describe him as "British-born", so we can do that too, but that doesn't preclude us also describing him as a British citizen. You have not offered anything that says he is not a British citizen.

It would be helpful if you respected WP:BRD. Bondegezou (talk) 14:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

"Council leader urges community to work together amid UK riots", The Oldham Times, August 6: "He is a British citizen who was born in Cardiff and was living in Banks, Lancashire." Bondegezou (talk) 14:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The Independent and Washington Post are green on WP:RSP. The Times of India is only amber on WP:RSP, so scrub that one. Wigan Today is not listed on WP:RSP, but its Wikipedia article suggests it is reliable. The Oldham Times is also not listed on WP:RSP: it's part of The Bolton News group and looks reliable; it's used as a source on other articles. El País isn't listed on WP:RSP but is a highly-regarded paper and widely used in Wikipedia articles. Bondegezou (talk) 14:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I am slightly worried by the fact that some normally reliable sources are using the term "British born". Are they deliberately avoiding the word "citizen"? And those sources quoted above that use the word citizen - do they actually know if Rudakubana acquired citizenship or are they just assuming - like I did - that a child born in the UK automatically has citizenship? Is there even any mechanism for someone under the age of 18 to register for citizenship if they were born here (they can after the age of 18)? Does it make any practical difference if he is a citizen or British-born? I think it would be safer to describe him as British-born until we have more information. Southdevonian (talk) 14:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

According to this gov website [3] he would automatically have citizenship at birth if one of his parents - even if not a British, EU or EEA citizen - had: indefinite leave to remain; right to re-admission; right of abode. So the chances are he acquired British citizenship at birth. Southdevonian (talk) 15:22, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, it is safer to stick with "British born" until a majority of sources say "British Citizen". As to your latter point, chances are he has yes, but that's not confirmed. 10mmsocket (talk) 19:41, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Why would anyone assume he is not a citizen? Being British-born is one of the requisites, and unless the sources that use that term explicitly state "British-born but citizenship status unclear" I fear we're heading into WP:NPOV territory here. Orange sticker (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

or more accurately WP:OR. Speculating on the status of his parents when we have ample RS that agree on something seems inappropriate. Orange sticker (talk) 19:57, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. It is WP:OR for editors to try and work out whether Rudakubana is a citizen from first principles, and it is also WP:OR to try to interpret the choice of "British born" by some sources as being to intentionally avoid commenting on his citizenship.

We have multiple sources that meet WP:RS/WP:RSP that say he is a British citizen. We have nothing that says he isn't. Bondegezou (talk) 08:22, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Being born in Britain is not one of the requisites - you can be born anywhere and be a British citizen and not everyone born in Britain is a citizen. It is complicated [4]. I don't think anyone is suggesting that he is not a citizen - just that it might not be 100 per cent certain. I think it is enough to say, like the BBC and the Guardian, that he is British born. But if other editors prefer to go with the Independent and El Pais I am not going to argue about it (although I suspect that some media have probably not thought too much about it). Why is citizenship important anyway? Do other articles about crimes stress the citizenship of the accused? I imagine it is because there was an initial false rumour that the attacker had recently arrived in Britain. Southdevonian (talk) 08:51, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Citizenship is an important point in this particular incident because the event has been a major talking point in the UK and a catalyst for mass protests and criticism of immigration. Many voices have condemned a trend of extreme acts of violence by migrants, therefore establishing that this person was a naturalised British citizen would do much to quell that as it was a major talking point.

It is very strange that so many papers haven't outright said it. According to one interview, the family moved in 2002, meaning he would have been born a few years after. If they naturalised then it would have been trivial to register him as a British citizen.

The problem is the other half of this contentious argument is that people are moving to the UK but not adapting to life here, preferring not to assimilate the culture and living almost in a separate world. Moving and living here for over 20 years without naturalisation would also lend credence to this side of the argument as well. As a result it's still a major talking point and there is seemingly no definitive answer. Simoncrowder (talk) 19:00, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOTFORUM. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:04, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

My comment is on topic and relevant. You may be unfamiliar with this discussion point if you are not au fait with current affairs in the country of the article's origin. The point is that the subject's citizenship is quite an important piece of information and has been a central focal point in countless articles. The article should therefore, either state it definitively with cited references, or state that it is unknown. The person above asked why it was important and I clarified that. Now you have pulled the conversation off-topic in attempting to explain the importance of clarity. Simoncrowder (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think any of the misinformation or speculation was regarding the suspect's citizenship, rather whether or not he was an immigrant. He is not an immigrant and nothing has been published about his parents' citizenship status other than they emigrated at some point before he was born. For information, I am very familiar with the coverage of this story and politics in the UK as well as the policy regarding WP:OR. Orange sticker (talk) 16:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Given the discussion above, WP:RS and WP:BRD, I have re-reverted 10mmsocket's bold edit and added two of the sources discussed above to the page. The page now has 3 RS in support of the claim Rudakubana is a British citizen. The text still also reports that he was British born (or, rather, specifies he was born in Cardiff). Bondegezou (talk) 09:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that's premature and a bit tendentious t.b.h. given the opinions of others in this discussion, but I'm not gong to edit war. If it makes you feel better to act this way then go ahead. 10mmsocket (talk) 09:16, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

You made a WP:BOLD edit, claiming the Independent was the only source saying this. I gave you 4 articles from 3 sources supporting his British citizenship and reverted you. You then immediately returned your edit, in violation of WP:BRD and dismissed sources given on non-policy-based grounds. Since then, Orange sticker has also supported the article saying he is a British citizen, while Southdevonian has also contributed to discussion, but has chosen to be agnostic on the edit. If you are looking for WP:TE, I suggest a mirror. Bondegezou (talk) 09:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

What I actually said was "I think it is enough to say, like the BBC and the Guardian, that he is British born." I have removed two unformatted refs as they don't add anything - I doubt they have done anything original - probably just copying from each other or even Wikipedia. Southdevonian (talk) 12:04, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

My apologies, Southdevonian if I misrepresented you above. I was going off your comment that if other editors prefer to go with the Independent and El Pais I am not going to argue about it. Bondegezou (talk) 12:12, 6 September 2024 (UTC)