Talk:2024 Spanish floods

Requested move 30 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: move. (non-admin closure) INeedSupport ^:3 00:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

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October 2024 Spain floods → 2024 Spain floods – Remove unnecessary disambiguator. Family27390 (talk) 22:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

• I think the page and its history should be moved to the "2024 Spain floods" page there aren't any other articles about flooding in Spain this year (so adding October to the title is rather unnecessary). In the "2024 Spain floods" page itself, I edited it into a redirect myself for the "2024 European floods" article, earlier this month. Quake1234 (talk) 13:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• I agree with this. Moondragon21 (talk) 14:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• 2024 European floods#Spain There was notable flooding in Spain in June 2024. Unknown Temptation (talk) 14:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  The "2024 Spain floods" article used to be about that event, but since the event itself didn't feel that significant, and with the page itself feeling too short and lacking, I changed it into a redirect. We could put the June 2024 flooding in the new article, though. Quake1234 (talk) 15:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  There's a strong chance the event will continue into Friday which would make the "October" qualifier inaccurate anyway. Valenciano (talk) 21:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  Agree: Based on current weather predictions, it appears that continuous rainfall will impact Spain well into November, so changing the name of this article to 2024 Spain floods would probably be best. A separate section could be added for June flooding while still maintaining emphasis on the Cold drop-caused flash flooding and its consequences in the main paragraph. Noble Attempt (talk) 00:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't agree. Wikipedia does not predict the future. The heavy rain is gone for the moment, most of the water has rapidly flowed to the sea. DovaModaal (talk) 06:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  I agree. Rain has stopped. Keeping 'October' is more appropriate. Pinareño1970 (talk) 14:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  It is not true that the rain has stopped. Andalusia is still facing heavy rainfall and the AEMET has forecast that the instability will continue through the weekend. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  e 82.3.55.130 (talk) 15:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

•  Comment: In the whole article is mentioned only "October". I'll agree with the move when the rest of the months are mentioned (like here) Tajotep (talk) 01:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Agree It's time to move the article, we are in November, DANA is still in Spain and there are now consequences in Barcelona. Tajotep (talk) 10:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• I don't agree to make the article broader. There is one single major meteorological event starting on 29 octobre 2024. The title should be changed to reflect that single meteorological situation and its effects (with floods in several places). DovaModaal (talk) 06:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• "2024 Spain floods" sounds good article name to me, so i agree with it Bakhos2010 (talk) 09:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support Also a hatnote like:
  For the Floods earlier in the year, see 2024 European floods § Spain.
  could make sense, if it's not merged into this article. Nobody (talk) 09:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose — The article October 2024 Spain floods covers specific floods that stand out from the other floods in Spain in 2024, because they are the deadliest floods there in many years, so a separate article seems appropriate. And as long as the floods don't have a proper name the descriptive article title seems appropriate as well. – Editør (talk) 17:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  To clarify: I don't believe all floods in Spain from 2024 should be grouped with this article's topic, because these specific floods merit a standalone article. And only now that it is November, I believe this article should be renamed and get a more accurate title such as October-November 2024 Spain floods or preferably a proper name for the flood if it exists already. – 10:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Editør (talk) 10:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support It is 31 October and the floods won't stop today. Felicia (talk) 18:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support It is now 1 November and there are still red and orange weather warnings in place for floods and heavy rain. I think it's fair to say that this is the primary topic for floods in Spain in 2024, as opposed to the much more minor instances earlier in the year. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support I completely agree with this.
  Please name it 2024 Spain Floods.
  And there is no way to merge this into the European page, Spain has suffered +90% of the 2024 flood disasters in Europe. This deserves a separate article.
  This can be the biggest natural disaster in the modern history of Spain. 84.125.71.231 (talk) 10:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support – There's now 100+ deaths and it seems if people search "2024 Spain floods" they would expect this one instead, Maybe still early to say though, but hey, I could see it having major effects in the region for years to come. SomeoneWiki04 (talk) 11:38, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support – Floods will continue after October 31 Miiversal (talk) 12:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support This is the biggie. Ericoides (talk) 14:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Neutral on the title, but under no circumstances should it be grouped with content about other instances of floods in 2024 beyond the October-November timescale that relates to the cut-off low's synoptic length-scale, in Spain or elsewhere.--Asqueladd (talk) 15:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose move to proposed title but I may go for 2024 Autumnal Spain floods based on the season this disaster is happening. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 16:33, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support Looking at how a similar article is named in the language of those affected (Spanish Wikipedia) there is no mention of the month. Anagnorisis (talk) 20:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose – renaming would be deceptive, it is too broad, when what is actually appropriate is specificity.
  Other floods happened in Spain in 2024, as indicated elsewhere on Wikipedia. The proposed solution in search of a problem would also break other appropriate links. Moreover, damage in Appalachia specifically due to Hurricane Helene is not regarded by anyone as something so broad and exclusionary as "2024 Appalachia Floods" but rather addressed something more appropriately specific as Effects of Hurricane Helene in North Carolina. I don't understand why people take time out of there day to literally just try to fix things which aren't broken. Derrgill (talk) 16:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

A years worth of rain in 8 hours for one city. Wouldn't it make more sense to name it, Effects of Storm Dana in Spain, similar to the naming convention used on other major storms when creating an article around a specific region that was effected by it?

Dana Spain flooding report

LA ALCUDIA, Spain flooding

RCSCott91 (talk) 03:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@RCSCott91: I think you might be confused. "DANA" is not the name of a storm, it's the acronym for the weather phenomenon of a cold drop. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:09, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Grnrchst Thanks. I see that now. The way they were using the acronym came off as a proper name in reading. RCSCott91 (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Support: there's still flooding in November Bloxzge 025 (talk) 03:47, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Support as the floods in Spain are still going strong even in November. Hansen Sebastian (Talk) 08:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Support to make easier to find article, i searched this article with "2024 Spain floods" too. ANJANIY^#gurung 16:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Shorter and clearer. Herostratus (talk) 04:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support, since the flooding happened at the very end of October. Mentioning the month seems unnecessary. CycloneYoris ^talk! 10:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 31 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: speedy keep as there is already an active move request. (non-admin closure) Aydoh8^[contribs] 23:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

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October 2024 Spain floods → 2024 Valencia flood – There is already an article named 1957 Valencia flood, about a previous event like the one just happened in Valencia. Also, the great flood event is limited to Valencia so it's unnecessary to name the event after the country itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.0.253.176 (talk) 14:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

That wouldn't be appropriate. While the event is centred on Valencia region there has been significant disruption outside there too and deaths of people. This is detailed in the article. Valenciano (talk) 19:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Strong Oppose There is already a discussion above and that proposed move makes more sense. Felicia (talk) 18:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Further expand Paiporta information

I can't cite any sources on this right now, but over 50 of the deaths have been in Paiporta. It is arguably one of the most affected places. Houses have been destroyed, and there's people likely dead in underground garages, and they have still not been found.

I will try to add some information about this myself sometime in the future, but it would be nice if someone could begin researching this topic to find some official sources.

I know I am not an official source, but I live very nearby to that area and have close friends there. MrCiteYourSources (talk) 22:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I urge anyone here to add sources to newly added information ModernDaySlavery (talk) 06:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@ModernDaySlavery

I will try to do this myself when the things calm down a little. I know I should just edit the article myself, but I am writing from my phone, as I have no access to my computer right now.

Today the Govt President, the Community President and the Spanish King/Queen visited Paiporta. There were major incidents, including people throwing mud and different stuff at them. The presidents left the area pretty quickly. The royal family stayed there longer. The main target of the insults and attacks were the presidents, people were telling the king to make them leave their charges (there was a cancelled emergency plan, no help has been asked to the rest of the emergency services of the country, and the alerts were massively late, almost 2-3h after some places were already flooded and destroyed).

It would also be important to highlight the gigantic amount of fake news/misinformation being spread, at least in affected areas. This includes the supposed interrumption of the 112 phone line (our emergency service number, equivalent to 911).

All this info can be easily sourced if you look in "La 1" (major TV news in Spain), "La Sexta" (major TV news in Spain), "EL PAIS" (major printed/digital newspaper in Spain) or "Apunt Televisió" (biggest Valencia local TV news that has been chosen as the official source of information for Valencian people by the government). MrCiteYourSources (talk) 23:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Today the ... was already added 10 hours before the above comment.

How were the alerts were massively late if the article says flooding was around noon and "AEMET issued its first red weather warning at 07:36"?

If All this info can be easily sourced if you look in ... "EL PAIS", then how could the gigantic amount of fake news/misinformation ... [include] the supposed interrumption of the 112 phone line?

The article's EL PAIS source disagrees

It asserts "la imposibilidad de contactar con el 112 por estar las líneas colapsadas" ("the impossibility of contacting 112 because the lines are collapsed") and people "no pueden comunicarse con el 112 debido a la saturación de las líneas" ("cannot communicate with 112 due to the saturation of the lines").

174.94.28.189 (talk) 08:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@174.94.28.189

When I say "the alerts were massively late" I am referring to the ES Alert system (auto notifications to mobile systems) which were received approximately 2h after the "Rambla del Poyo" had collapsed. To be honest, I didnt even see the AEMET alert, which is a problem on my side, but a lot of people had that same problem.

As for the king's visit, I hadn't seen that in the article to be honest, but it would appear to be missing the part about Carlos Mazon

The 112 lines were satturated, not "offline". There were multiple people saying that the 112 line was offline (not attending any calls at all). The 112 line was not offline, and users would be kept waiting until an agent was available. People were sharing a supposed alternative number to 112, but that was a fake.

https://x.com/carlos_mazon_/status/1851384303973724627

Anyway, that is only one of the many "misinformation spreads" that have been around these latest days.

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20241030/lluvia-bulos-empeorado-aguacero-zonas-afectadas-dana-valencia-albacete-110910126

In fact, there is one currently being explained on Apunts TV about the Alfafar-Benetusser tunnel supposedly being filled with corpses. MrCiteYourSources (talk) 14:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

EL PAIS clearly says "the impossibility of contacting 112 because the lines are collapsed" meaning it thinks the 112 lines were offline. But that elperiodico source could be used as an alternative perspective. The alerts and the king need a source. 174.94.28.189 (talk) 01:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Use trans title for refs in Spanish

This article has many sources written in Spanish. Only a few show the title in English as well. Copy the Spanish title into Google translate (or other translation app) then copy that translation. Add trans-title= to the ref, placing the translation after the =. The translation will appear in single square brackets after the Spanish title in the Reference.

Not all English speakers can read Spanish and this is English Wikipedia. I added two trans-titles, and see there are many more in need of them. - - Prairieplant (talk) 07:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Please don't copy Google Translate without editing or understanding the translation. See WP:MACHINETRANSLATION. 174.94.28.189 (talk) 08:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out, I've added title translations throughout the article. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Ditto on not using Google Translate for transtitles, as someone whose job involves foreign languages, it is woeful for understanding nuance and context, and it sticks out like a sore thumb when someone has been relying on it. If I have to use references on Wikipedia in languages I do not know, I do not write the trans title myself as I can't trust a machine on it. Unknown Temptation (talk) 11:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thirded, I've come across too many bad machine translations by monolingual people to trust it. Speaking of translation issues: when translating the titles, I left "DANA" as is, but should I instead translate it to "cold drop" for the benefit of anglophones? The acronym may not be understood as well by people that don't speak Spanish. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I see English sources using DANA [1] [2] so I guess it's OK, pretty much a proper noun. When it's referred to particularly as a 'gota fría', I'd turn that to 'cold drop' as that's what the page is titled. But the thing is translation is not arithmetic and different answers suit different people. Unknown Temptation (talk) 15:04, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I often end up having to choose between the most literal and most understandable with translations like this. Thanks for the English sources, I'll keep it as is for now. :) --Grnrchst (talk) 15:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

convert infobox image from pdf to image

the images are very informative. i've added similar European Union ERCC – Emergency Response Coordination Centre pdfs to 2024 Central European floods. what's a way we could get auto-generated images from the pdfs? this would help i think, so that when users tap the image for greater detail, they're not directed to a separate file details of pdf page Johnfreez (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Inkscape can import the PDF and preferably export as SVG to upload to Wikimedia Commons. 174.94.28.189 (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

this is helpful, thanks :) it would be even better if the file format conversion could be automated and added to the appropriate place, for example Category:ECHO Daily Maps of 2024. Johnfreez (talk) 09:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The PDFs have links to the data sources which is very useful. Lupe (talk) 16:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

wow i hadn't noticed that. thank you and others and developers of OptimusPrimeBot for uploading these informative images and infographics really. having the data sources linked inside the pdf is great. it would also be great if a reader weren't forwarded to a separate page when tapping on the image. Johnfreez (talk) 11:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't know why the PDF format opens differently, but I agree that it's annoying. Lupe (talk) 12:33, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

SVG supports "links to the data sources". It's just that Inkscape doesn't import them from PDF correctly. It's also sad that the file size gets inflated from 1 MB to more than 10 MB. Though if I use pdf2svg which compresses it, the text becomes unselectable. Does anyone know of a PDF to SVG converter that preserves links? 174.94.28.189 (talk) 23:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

yes preserving links and, in general, fidelity to the original pdf in the converted svg would be ideal. it would be nice to present readers with all these different file format options, and at least for the leading infobox image, when tapping/clicking it, to have it enlarge as other images do. as well it makes sense to have it in a format that puts it in the sequence of article images that can be slideshowed, i.e., can be cycled through along with all other article images. Johnfreez (talk) 10:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

i think i have an answer to my original question... the pdfs all seems to already be auto-converted from pdfs into different sized images... i just didn't look carefully enough to notice them. so should we use one of the image versions of the pdf in the article and also make the reader aware of the tapable/clickable data sources in the pdf format? Johnfreez (talk) 10:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

No, the PDF version is still better. Lupe (talk) 11:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

hmmm... then what about emphasizing the availability of the data sources in a caption of the pdf? it would be a bit strange but what about placing both formats side-by-side so the image is expandable on-tap/click and shows up in a cycle/slideshow of the article's images? or alternatively maybe putting a copy of the pdf in image format somewhere else in the article? Johnfreez (talk) 11:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

A slideshow is designed but there is the bug https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T77145. Maybe they can be persuaded to prioritize single-page PDFs. 174.94.28.189 (talk) 01:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, solving that would of course be better than converting every PDF file page into another format. Sadly the phabricator task is already almost ten years old. Lupe (talk) 01:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

am i mistaken to think that this is already done? pdf's automatically optionally available in image formats? thanks for pointing out the slideshow feature. what i was referring to when i said slideshow was simply when there's an image tapped-on/clicked and thus expanded, then there's an ability to press arrow keys to cycle through article images. but in the case of pdf's, they're skipped over Johnfreez (talk) 12:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Aftermath and Response scopes?

I was wondering what the scopes for the "Aftermath" and "Response" sections are supposed to be? It seems like currently there's some overlap between the two. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:14, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I think Response should come before Aftermath, the former should deal with the reaction to the event and the second to the consequence of what happened. Barjimoa (talk) 14:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Floods in Spain

Given the recent flood, there is probably some interest in having an article for floods in Spain. The above is a redirect, but if anyone watching this article is interested, I could help set up the article/list. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:12, 3 November 2024 (UTC)