Talk:2024 Velyka Novosilka offensive

Delete or Merge

In my opinion, we should either delete this page or merge it with the Eastern Ukraine campaign page and the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive page because this page is too short, and most of its content is already included in the Eastern Ukraine campaign page and the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive page Bukansatya (talk) 10:23, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Expand the article to include current events, acknowledge that this is not a victory for Ukraine, make a second article or simply merge it. 2A01:113F:203:3D00:CC1A:6E75:8F5B:86B0 (talk) 09:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree Bukansatya (talk) 10:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I would support merging some of the content but it appears much of the article is unsourced. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 20:27, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

That is because of this edit from today. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 20:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bukansatya I do not understand the purpose of your edit linked in the reply above, where you removed a majority of the article's references, but I would still support merging the March 2022 content into eastern front of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the June 2023 content into 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive (retaining the previously existing references, if needed). SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

What do you think about trimming and making background the current pre-2024 battle content, (provided that sources are re-added to that content) and making the article subject the current offensive towards the town? [1] [2] [3] Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 00:03, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

If you are of the opinion that such an article would meet WP:GNG, I have no objections. Hard for me to assess because I have not been keeping up with the news as much lately.

If in the future we determine that it is not notable enough, maybe it can be combined with the 2024 sections in battle of Vuhledar into a new article. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 05:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

My bad, sorry I wasn't careful enough because it was already night at my place at that time. Bukansatya (talk) 02:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bukansatya I respect you editing this page, but that does seem like a lot of text for a fairly small event, I'm not sure if it fits WP:N. Regarding the article in general, i would be in favor of focussing on the events after the fall of Vuhledar. As Flemmish Nietzsche pointed out, the rest could be trimmed into the Background section, which is very broad at the moment.I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 15:10, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you in advance for your willingness to edit this page. Regarding the events of the capture of Staromayorske and Urozhaine, to be honest, I also feel that the text is too lengthy for such brief incidents. Initially, I intended to summarize it, but since it was already 11 PM in my time zone, I decided to postpone the task.

If you would like to summarize that section, I would express my deepest gratitude. As for moving the events to the background section, feel free to do so as you see fit. However, in my opinion, the entries for June 2 and June 5 could be relocated to the analysis section. Bukansatya (talk) 15:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bukansatya I question whether the events during the Ukrainian counteroffensive and Russian recapture of Urozhaine-Staromaiorske are pertinent to this article at all; the Ukrainian advances in 2023 "somewhere in the vicinity of Velyka Novosilka" were not in an effort to "win the battle for the town", but were for a more front-wide purpose specific to that counteroffensive; the pre-2024 period of fighting ends when Russia's lackluster attempts at advancing towards the town were thwarted. Similarly, I have not seen sources say that Urozhaine and Staromaiorske were recaptured by Russia in an offensive effort to capture/reach Velyka Novosilka, for it was rather more about "sending a message" (similar to Robotyne) and "retaking lost territory" in the area. I'd like to remind you that this is about fighting primarily for Velyka Novosilka itself and offensive efforts that sources say are meant to reach/contest it; this, as far as I have seen, limits us only to early 2022 and today. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 18:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Alright, thank you for correcting my mistake. This is my first time being directly involved with a page like this, so I had not realized that matter before Bukansatya (talk) 23:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Battles

Since the title has been changed from Battle of Velyka Novosilka to Battles for Velyka Novosilka, I just want to find out a few things. When and how long was the first phase of the battles? Did the first phase end in December 2022? Did the second phase of the battles start after the fall of Vuhledar in late 2024? Seeing that Vuhledar is 30km east of Velyka Novolsilka, I think the date after October, 2024 should be the starting point of the second phase of the battle for Velyka Novosilka. Gerald1984 (talk) 09:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

The first offensive ended on June 14, 2023, after Russian forces withdrew from Staromayorske, marking the conclusion of Russia's initial offensive along the Velyka Novosilka axis."

Bukansatya (talk) 11:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

In other words, the first phase of the battle for Velyka Novosilka started on March 2022 and ended in June 2023. This was followed by the Ukranian counter-offensive in June 2023 and which died down in December 2023. The 2nd phase of the battle began on 3rd November 2024 after the battle of Vuhledar. In other words, this makes date in the infobox inaccurate.Gerald1984 (talk) 13:18, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

My bad, I will fix it when I have free timeBukansatya (talk) 13:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Ping @Bukansatya - seeing that the title has been changed to 2024 Velyka Novosilka offensive, there is no need for the recommended changes. Anyway I was looking at the recent maps by military bloggers and DeepState, there is currently fighting within the vicinity of Velyka Novosilka. I think the Russians will either capture the town within a week or two.Gerald1984 (talk) 15:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

It is possible that it may happen sooner, as according to the latest information, Russian milbloggers claim that Russian forces have already entered Velyka Novosilka from the eastern side. However, considering that urban warfare is extremely challenging, in my opinion, it might take 3-4 weeks at the earliest Bukansatya (talk) 16:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC)