Talk:2024 Venezuelan protests

Cuba is supporting maduro and should be added to the battle box

Just saw something about Cuban government forces arriving in Caracas to assist maduro 68.199.243.137 (talk) 18:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Could you provide a source, please? Couldn't find anything myself. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

subst:requested move|2024 Venezuelan unrest|

Not only there are peaceful demonstrations, but civil unrest and violence in between. SpringField23402 (talk) 22:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@SpringField23402: You coded it incorrectly. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 15:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I forgot how to do it SpringField23402 (talk) 15:52, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Template added

Someone has just added Template:Political POV to the article. However, per the template page:

When to remove

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true:

1. ...

2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given.

3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

I suggest the template be removed. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 14:32, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I have removed it. The person who added it is a self-described Maduro supporter. By itself that wouldn't be an issue, but when you stop edition for two years to start editing articles you have evident conflicts of interest, the changes must be discussed first. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 15:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. :-) --Dustfreeworld (talk) 21:53, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry I put the tag without giving a reason. I was editing after I took my nocte psych meds, and I was starting to become sleepy, so I stopped editing. My bad :-(

The reason I put this tag on is because the article content and the language used covering overwhelming favours the talking points of the anti-Chavista hardline opposition. I am going to work on the page so it becomes more two sided. Cheers ^ - ^ Viva Nicolás (talk) 03:00, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Could you rather not? Its beyond self-evident how "neutral" user 'Viva Nicolas' is going to be, this is mockery of NPOV. Your further language here just proves it beyond doubt. I'm removing the tag. EllsworthSK (talk) 10:39, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

There's no reason why someone with an explicit political position can't be neutral. Garflasange (talk) 10:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

No sources given or adequate justification for the tag have been provided, many hours later. Tag removed again. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:35, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Errors

This kind of error (in only one piece I checked) is concerning: I hope that someone who speaks Spanish is checking this article for source-to-text integrity. I don't have time to review everything-- I only checked that sentence, which is the last one on the current page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:40, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Source queries

Reliability ? https://www.stvincenttimes.com/president-maduro-denounces-violence-perpetrated-by-far-right-in-venezuela/ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:25, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Unreliable. As indicated in the text "SOURCES: Telesur" at the bottom of the page, the St. Vincent Times article is a verbatim republication of an article from  Telesur (RSP entry), a deprecated source. — Newslinger talk 03:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Newslinger; it's always a pleasure to see your name. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 2 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 05:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

---

2024 Venezuelan protests → 2024 Venezuelan unrest – "Not only there are peaceful demonstrations, but civil unrest and violence in between." SpringField23402 (talk) 22:14, 30 July 2024 -- Viva Nicolás (talk) 13:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, seems like a WP:POV fueled move. Allan Nonymous (talk) 13:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Wait: We should wait a few more days to see what happens. LuxembourgLover (talk) 02:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I am willing to be convinced that some sort of move is in order, because there is so much more going on than just protests, but a convincing argument for a new title has not yet been put forward and the situation is fast evolving, while this article is such a mess that it's hard to determine what the appropriate name might be. As of now, the article seems focused on the protests. There's a big protest planned for tomorrow (3 August), and a lot of what else is going on amounts to repression and human rights violations rather than unrest. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, the crackdown has quelled the protests and repressed unrest. This article is correctly named. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, same reason as User:Allan Nonymous; see 2020-2021 Belarusian protests 🤓 WeaponizingArchitecture | scream at me 🤓 17:03, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Wait: From what I've seen the protests haven't escalated to the severity implied by "unrest" (at least not yet). Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 17:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: While there are peaceful demonstrations, there are also videos and pictures of riots and civil unrest. SpringField23402 (talk) 19:05, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: The article on the protests in Myanmar is labelled Myanmar protests (2021–present) despite also having riots and unrest. There is no reason why this same reasoning cannot apply to this article. Hu753 (talk) 21:01, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Riots and unrest are a part of protests, but the article's title correctly emphasizes the larger movement. Waqar💬 19:03, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

  It doesn't, unfortunately. SpringField23402 (talk) 17:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: per above and also the George Floyd protests, which were called protests despite significant reports of rioting. HarukaAmaranth 04:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Protests can include both civil disobedience and rioting. We should only change to "unrest" if that was the common name, or the majority of the protests were rioting, neither of which seem to be the case. Gödel2200 (talk) 00:25, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Close: the user who initiated the Move request attempted to close it here; as the close was the incorrect way to withdraw a move request, the bot reinstated. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

POV tag

I added a tag to the chronology section, because it silences voices of the pro-Chavista Venezuelans. Feel free to disagree below. Viva Nicolás (talk) 14:16, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

You've not provided a valid justification for the tag, backed by sources, while you have consistently referenced non-reliable sources (eg in the ITN talk discussion and as queried here), so your tag is probably going to be removed again shortly. Please take a good look at WP:DISRUPT, WP:ADVOCACY and WP:RS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the tag. Frankly from the username alone this feels incredibly WP:RGW and I'm not enthused in the slightest at the edits that've been made. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 14:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention OP's name is literally "Viva Nicolás". Her attempts at NPOV are thin cover for very non neutral edit actions. Dsobol0513 (talk) 14:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

And the addition of a mirror of a deprecated source (see #Source queries). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:01, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Private defense of those arrested prohibited

To be added:

• https://www.infobae.com/venezuela/2024/08/02/el-regimen-de-venezuela-prohibio-la-defensa-privada-y-acusa-de-terrorismo-a-los-detenidos-en-las-protestas-contra-el-fraude-de-maduro/

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:46, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

And, rehabilitating two prisons to house those arrested:

• https://eldiario.com/2024/08/01/carceles-de-tocuyito-y-tocoron-detenidos-protestas/

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Claims of electoral fraud/the legitimacy of the election

I think usage of the terms "claims of electoral fraud" and "alleged electoral fraud" may present a perspective that is too neutral as to whether or not electoral fraud/other unscrupulous activity *probably* occurred. I understand that maintaining neutrality on Wikipedia is of the absolute utmost importance, but there seems to be reasonable evidence that electoral fraud occurred . To add to that, almost all South American countries, with the exception of Bolivia, do not recognize the results of the election, and the only countries that disagree regarding this are those that are generally undemocratic and generally aligned with Maduro. Supercavitated 19:43, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Sources
References

Copying within Wikipedia

There have been numerous instances of people copying content from one Wikipedia article to another without proper attribution, which violates WP:COPYRIGHT. Please read WP:CWW and indicate with a link to the article you copied from when you bring from another article someone else's writing here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:05, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

This problem continues; every time I visit here, I find a breach of WP:CWW. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:08, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Removal of the belligerents in the infobox should be reversed

I see no reason for why to remove it. In fact, removing all the parties, cartels or other groups and simply saying "government vs opposition" is way too minimalist and hides important information. Sotefosketeiro (talk) 22:08, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The list there was too long to be meaningful or useful; I suggest removing even government vs. opposition. It's not a war; it's a government repression. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Add a collapseable list then! 🤓 WeaponizingArchitecture | scream at me 🤓 02:25, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The Maduro administration is rounding up protesters and imprisoning them; see #Private defense of those arrested prohibited. More than 1,000 detained now, and plans to expand prisons and detain another thousand. Adding "leaders" to an infobox is creating a serious and dangerous WP:BLP violation. They should all be removed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:07, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Done. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 18:35, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 18:35, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

It looks like the infobox is getting too long again. Neither the "Lead figures" nor "Parties" sections have sources, in any case. David O. Johnson (talk) 02:45, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the infobox is now unreadable and of little utility. I have seen no source indicating this is a 3-way conflict, or that all of the alleged belligerents actually are. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I’ve removed the unsourced and disputed content from infobox per WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 19:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Viva Nicolás, you are re-installing controversial infobox parameters for the second time, and you don't seem to be engaging the talk page; see WP:BRD. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:32, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Proposal

I propose we (for the second time) restore the simpler infobox parameters as in this version. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:32, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

"Decades of perceived authoritarianism" in infobox

Should "perceived" be removed from the "Caused by" section of the infobox?

I don't think it should, as it's quite clear. David O. Johnson (talk) 01:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Maduro's authoritarianism is very well sourced; see his own article and the high quality sources there. But I'm not sure about "decades", since he was handed power by Chavez in 2013. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:59, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

It was removed earlier with the rationale that "We don't know if they are actually authoritarian." [1]. It's a ludicrous assertion. David O. Johnson (talk) 05:01, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it is. There is a wealth of sources at Nicolás Maduro#Controversies; I've linked to that, and removed the "decades". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:17, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

There are prose and grammatical issues in the Chronology section, and every time I visit, I find content that is factually inaccurate or does not correctly represent the source. A check of sources throughout is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:13, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Flag

Hi

Do you have a source about the flag used by the opposition? Panam2014 (talk) 03:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Recent edits to the lead

Steven1991 you are making edits to the lead of the article faster than they can be repaired on a widely viewed article; please discuss your edits on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, thank you for reminder. Steven1991 (talk) 15:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I have done all the repair I intend to for now, but you have introduced considerable content in the lead that is nowhere to be found in the body; please think about improving the body of the article before chunking info in to the lead, with errors. Repair is incomplete, but I leave it to others. Please read WP:LEAD, WP:LEADCITE and WP:FN (refs go after punctuation except for dashes); the lead is a summary of the body-- not a stand-alone article about content not even covered in the body.

I suggest returning the lead to what it was before this series of edits. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:23, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Steven1991 your edits to the lead are ill-informed and disruptive. The US did not perform any forensic analysis of vote tallies, has not taken a lead in declaring Maduro lost the election, so should not be singled out, and I am aware of no source that states that colectivos are taking people from their homes. Yet you continued these edits after I asked that you slow down and discuss.[2]

Your edits to the lead are also going off-topic (this article is about the protests) and causing confusion; see #Electoral fraud.

I suggest reverting to the lead before these off-topic and unsourced edits. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi,

Please check the following sources:

- https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/world/americas/venezuela-election-gonzalez-maduro.html (The New York Times)

- https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/02/venezuela-election-us-edmundo-gonzalez-maduro-results-disputed (The Guardian)

- https://www.cbsnews.com/news/venezuela-election-us-recognizes-edmundo-gonzalez-winner-raud-allegations-maduro/ (CBS News)

Just because you don't want to acknowledge it, it doesn't mean it is not true. I am rather sceptical of the motive behind the accusation. Steven1991 (talk) 22:36, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Please re-read my message again. Carefully. The US did not perform any forensic analysis of vote tallies, has not taken a lead in declaring Maduro lost the election, so should not be singled out, and I am aware of no source that states that colectivos are taking people from their homes.. The forensic analysis was done by others. Other countries have taken the lead on the Maduro loss issue, but aren't mentioned by you, while the US (the last and slowest to weigh in, and which has still not taken a forceable stand) is mentioned. And what source supports colectivos taking people from their homes?

Please also review WP:LEAD; this article is about the protests, not the election, and the lead should summarize the body of the article. You have an installed a lead with unverified content, that is not about the protests-- rather goes into excess detail about the election. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I recall seeing a recent Talk page section about different sources not agreeing on whether the US recognized the election, but I can't seem to find it. David O. Johnson (talk) 00:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

David O. Johnson, it's at Talk:2024 Venezuelan presidential election/Archive 1#U.S. recognition of election result. The US eventually recognized Gonzalez as the winner, but they a) were very slow even in that, and b) have not recognized him as president-elect as other countries have. They are either deliberately taking it slow, or taking it slow due to incompetence and lack of leadership, but that's another issue; they aren't taking a lead on the "who won" issue (covered in the Wall Street Journal article and others about the amnesty question-- not for this article). They shouldn't be singled out in the lead on protests as they aren't even worthy of singling out in the elections article.

But that's not the main problem with this lead; the bigger issue is the uncited text (colectivos taking people from their homes and the US completing a forensic examination of the evidence), and the amount of the lead that is not a summary of this article, rather other articles.

Only one paragraph of the current lead is about the protests. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:13, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Steven1991 with these edits, I have restored the lead to generally what it was before the excess and off-topic detail was added, and then expanded to include more info about the actual protests-- to conform with WP:LEAD and have lead content about the protests rather than overly detailed about the elections per se, while moving cited content to Background and Reactions. Please review WP:ONUS and WP:BRD, and gain consensus on talk for edits; you did not have consensus to expand the lead into content not about the protests, and should not reinstate that content without gaining consensus. Also, please review WP:LEADCITE and note that leads can be generalized and that each sentence doesn't need to be cited (I have cited quotes and statistics). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Electoral Fraud

Does anyone know how Maduro (or the CNE) committed electoral fraud? I understand the tally-sheet evidence; but does anyone know exactly how Maduro got the results he handed to the TSJ? For example, this article states that "[t]he election was won decisively by Edmundo González despite massive voter fraud" while not discussing how, by whom, when (exactly), or even where the fraud occurred. (It also assumes there's an answer to why, i.e., it assumes Maduro lost the election and needed to commit electoral fraud.) I feel like that's not good enough.

So, like, do we know there was electoral fraud? Are we sure about it? And, if so, why exactly? Is it maybe better to just chill with the we-know-for-sure-there-was-electoral-fraud stuff? 8.20.65.4 (talk) 16:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

See the section just above this one; very recent edits added content to the lead that is not explained anywhere in the body of this article. That content is over at 2024 Venezuelan presidential election; this article is about the protests. The fraud bit is expanded in the lead here without being explained in the body.

I think the recent changes to the lead should be entirely reverted.

Separately, if you don't "know there was electoral fraud", you apparently aren't at all familiar with the abundance of sources on the topic. If you're unclear on the how-they-did-it, it's very simple; they announced tallies to an improbable level of decimal places that were based on no evidence whatsoever. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:42, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Improper move

I have reverted a move of the article to "voter fraud protests"; the protests have extended beyond voter fraud. For example, 8 August was a vigil for political prisoners. And 3 August was a tribute to those "heroes" who defended the vote and were then persecuted in the ensuing crackdown. Human rights issues became part of the later protests as post-election issues unfolded. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Lead figures in infobox

Why are Superlano and Allup listed as "lead figures" in the infobox? Neither are mentioned in the article. I haven't seen sources discussing a prominent role in the protests for Allup. Superlano was detained by Maduro security forces shortly after the election, and is still in El Helicoide, so he certainly isn't a lead figure. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:14, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

No response, removed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

17 August

I hit a wall, tired; all I can do for today. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Citation needed

Theasiancowboy, please cite the text you add. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:58, 25 August 2024 (UTC)