Talk:2024 targeted assassination of Muhammad Deif

How do you have an article about an alleged assassination?

See above. Selfstudier (talk) 16:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

(Guardian) "The Saudi channel Al-Hadath reported that Salama, the commander of Hamas’s Khan Younis Brigade, was killed in the strike and that Deif was seriously wounded." Any more? Selfstudier (talk) 16:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for moving it. Selfstudier (talk) 16:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

All controversial moves should go through a RM.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:48, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 13 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: merge. There is consensus to merge to 13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack. As this appears to be more of a merge discussion than a move request, I'm closing it as a procedural close. Redirecting to the target and interested editors may refer to the history to complete the merge. (closed by non-admin page mover) Frost (talk) 10:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

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2024 targeted assassination of Muhammad Deif → 13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack – There are two distinct POVs here. Israel's POV is that they killed a mastermind of the October 7 attacks. Palestinian POV is that Israel massacred innocent civilians, including women and children. Wikipedia should not take sides. The title should be neutral, and all POVs should be discussed in the article.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Hold up a second there is July 2024 Al-Mawasi airstrikes already. Selfstudier (talk) 16:53, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Would rather redirect this rather poor article there, salvaging anything useful (not much) from here in the process.Selfstudier (talk) 17:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

That article was created four hours later; I've redirected it here. There isn't much duplicate content, but I'll copy over what there is. BilledMammal (talk) 18:09, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

And I have undone that until there is a consensus what to do. To me, it's like the Nuseirat case and anyway the later article is much better hasn't been edited by non EC editors etcetera.. Selfstudier (talk) 18:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

• Merge this article, including in the title, accepts as fact the Israeli statements, which should be independently confirmed. (t · c) buidhe 18:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
• Rename (or merge, also fine with the name of that article) as even Israel does not say they are sure he died.

I think that if we want to Merge, we should open a separate discussion about it. At the moment when there are two separate articles, there is no reason to change the name of this article to a name similar to the other article.Galamore (talk) 19:06, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support "Al-Mawasi airstrikes". "Airstrikes" is more accurate than "attack", and will help readers better recognize the topic, but "13 July 2024" is too precise, although I'm not as strongly against "2024". BilledMammal (talk) 19:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  Support but this article is far from neutral/NPOV. The lede and background section need rewriting Kowal2701 (talk) 19:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  The other article is not neutral either, although its lede is better, they should be combined with both narratives given equal weight Kowal2701 (talk) 19:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  And which title do you support, or any?VR _{(Please ping on reply)} VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  July 2024 Al-Mawasi attack or other, as it is consistent with June 2024 Al-Mawasi refugee camp attack and May 2024 Al-Mawasi refugee camp attack Kowal2701 (talk) 19:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  Excellent point! WP:CONSISTENCY is important.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  But inconsistent with Refugee camp airstrikes in the Israel–Hamas war, Jabalia refugee camp airstrikes (2023–2024), 31 October 2023 Jabalia refugee camp airstrike, Al-Shati refugee camp airstrikes, June 2024 northern Gaza City airstrikes, Al-Fakhoora school airstrikes, Al-Shifa ambulance airstrike, 2023 Israeli airstrikes on municipal services in the Gaza Strip, Church of Saint Porphyrius airstrike, Engineer's Building airstrike, 12 February 2024 Rafah strikes, 2024 Iranian strikes against Israel, Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus, 2024 Israeli strikes on Iran, 2024 missile strikes in Yemen, Marlin Luanda missile strike. BilledMammal (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  Since this was intended as a military vs military operation, I'd tentatively support airstrikes Kowal2701 (talk) 21:28, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  What is inaccurate about "attack"? Airstrikes is WP:OVERPRECISE that can easily become inaccurate if it is later shown that any ground (or naval) units were involved. "attack" is WP:CONSISTENT with World Central Kitchen aid convoy attack, 9 July 2024 Gaza attacks etc. Please also see this RM closure that favored "attack" over "airstrike".VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  "Attack" is ambiguous, and WP:COMMONALITY would prefer "airstrikes" (or "strikes") over "attack" for airstrikes - while there are exceptions, they aren't common.

  "Al-Mawasi strikes" would address your concerns about it becoming inaccurate, but we don't title our articles based on the possibility that our title will become inaccurate, we retitle it in the event that it does. BilledMammal (talk) 19:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  What is ambiguous or uncommon about "attack"? "Strikes" is problematic because most articles called "strikes" are about labor disputes. "Attack" offers the most commonality, as we can then employ this term across the board regardless of when the victims are Palestinians or Israelis (eg see Holit attack).VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  Attack usually refers to a ground attack; see Quarry:query/84826. Readers will likely interpret it that way. Airstrike, meanwhile, normally refers to airstrikes; see Quarry:query/84827.

  For attacks against Israel that don't involve ground troops, we generally use some form of "strikes". For example, 2024 Iranian strikes against Israel. BilledMammal (talk) 20:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong support given that the Israeli POV would limit the article's scope to the assassination attempt, while the Palestinian POV would enable the article to deal with both the assassination and the murder of civilians in the scope; we don't need two articles for this single incident. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, If the IDF did succeed, this is one of the most significant assassinations that have happened in the conflict in recent years. Eladkarmel (talk) 20:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on what that has to with WP policy? Kowal2701 (talk) 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Not only not a lot, but fortune telling as well. I suppose we could just hang around, wait for the IDF to say something concrete but even then how do we know if it is true? Selfstudier (talk) 20:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose moving since pretty much all RS mention Deif very prominently in the headlines of articles about the event and in the articles themselves [1] [2] [3]. That being said, it's likely that we won't get a confirmation of Deif's death any time soon, so I would suggest to rename the article to 2024 attempted assassination of Muhammad Deif. Alaexis_¿question? 20:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

They are all mentioning Deif because that's what Israel is saying, which they have said (BBC) on many occasions before when they failed to kill him. They are also all mentioning yet another mass killing at the hands of the IDF, which the IDF is claiming are all terrorists and the media doesn't believe. Selfstudier (talk) 20:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong support. "Targeted" in the title is absurdly POV given the attack was estimated to kill 90 people, and we're not even sure the target died, so calling it an assassination as fact (while ignoring the actual, confirmed victims) is highly non-neutral. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the exact target of the move, "attack" or "strikes" are both fine with me. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Support attack/strikes/merge the existing 13_July_2024_Al-Mawasi_airstrikes because it seems the sources are starting to focus more on the mass casualties than a maybe assassination. If there is confirmation that Deif was killed, then separate articles might still be possible but too early to say at this point.Selfstudier (talk) 21:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong support to move, or merge to 13 July 2024 Al-Mawasi airstrikes. AFAIK; Hamas have denied that Muhammad Deif has been killed, (and they nomally don't lie about when members have been assassinated) (Khalil al-Hayya, Deputy Chief of Hamas in Gaza, to Al Jazeera: "We tell Netanyahu that Mohammed Deif is hearing you now and is mocking your false statements.") Wikipedia looks 100% silly to have an article about "targeted assassination of Muhammad Deif", when Muhammad Deif is very much alive. Huldra (talk) 22:59, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment, actually, 13 July 2024 Al-Mawasi airstrikes should be moved to 13 July 2024 Al-Mawasi massacre, Huldra (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Support 13 July 2024 Al-Mawasi massacre as reflecting the reality (and sources). Also noting a support !vote for the title from User:Gianluigi02 that was removed from here.[4] — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:30, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Support. I'm writing this AGAIN because my comment has been removed (which says a lot about the bias of those who have decision-making power on this platform): change the title in to 13 July 2024 al-Mawasi massacre. Because this is a massacre. No one can deny this. It is a massacre against defenseless civilians with the excuse of killing a militant. Israel has repeatedly carried out mass attacks using this excuse.

And I will add a thing: even if those militants were killed (which has been denied by Hamas, who is always honest about its military losses and admits when a high-ranking militant has died), it would still be a massacre in which over 90 people were killed. 90 people for targeting one! How do you define it if not a massacre? Gianluigi02 (talk) 08:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose as premature. If he was killed, it should remain. If not, then move. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no guarantee that independent confirmation of this will ever be available. (t · c) buidhe 20:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge this article with 13 July 2024 Al-Mawasi airstrikes per above. Skitash (talk) 22:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge this article with the 13 July 2024 Al-Mawasi airstrikes and rename it to attack or massacre. Jebiguess (talk) 01:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge these are clearly the same event. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:04, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge both articles and stop creating a mess of articles out of this conflict. Pg 6475 ^TM 05:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment support renaming merged article to 2024 Al-Mawasi airstrikes. This is the most suitable title from a neutral POV. Pg 6475 ^TM 05:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge. This title makes no sense, as we can't even know that Israel even intended to assassinate Deif here. It could be just an excuse for another massacre. Mewulwe (talk) 09:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge: The incident is notable far more for the civilian deaths than Deif's targeting. Besides the other article is more detailed and better written. Linkin Prankster (talk) 06:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge or redirect to the far more developed page that's already located at the proposed destination. There's not really much here apart from some synth background and some reactions that may or may not duplicate what's already at the properly developed page. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge. To echo comments above, "targeted" in the title is absurdly POV. Anyway, this isn't one of those cases where the assassination was one part of the airstrikes or vice versa (not like a rescue operation during a raid; not like a massacre during a larger military offensive); the assassination and the airstrikes were one and the same.; there should be one article. No comment on whether that one article should be called "airstrikes" or "massacre" or "assassination"; that's for another time and page. Levivich (talk) 17:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, sorry, but re: Hamas don't lie about when members have been assassinated and is always honest about its military losses... um we have no idea how honest Hamas is, that's not something that's knowable. Let's stay focused on things we know, like Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and what RS write. Levivich (talk) 17:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Warring sides always use propaganda, nobody can be trusted. That said, deaths of militant commanders are usually reported accurately – the guys are considered martyrs, get official funerals, families are told to be proud, receive compensation, etc. It's a different logic in armed forces.

Also agree re. "targeted". Can there be assassinations that wouldn't be "targeted"?

Anyhow, a merge is on the way. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:27, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

At what point is there a clear consensus? I would've thought topics in the news would have a short 'deadline' due to their waning notoriety Kowal2701 (talk) 17:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Targeted killing = Assassination by government. Selfstudier (talk) 17:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Allegedly

@Whatever748: Why was one word "allegedly" replaced by a sentence? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss because "allegedly achieving its goal of assassinating the military commander of Hamas, Mohammed Deif." is an incorrect sentence. It did not allegedly achieve it's goals, or is not confirmed to have achieved it's goals yet.

Hamas claims that Deif survived the assassination attempt while the IDF claims that they don't know yet for sure whether he's dead, wounded, or unscathed. So it's unclear whether the operation was a success and neither side claims that it allegedly is.

I changed the lead section to a more accurate one describing the currently known situation, that the bombing's goal was to eliminate Deif, and that his status is not yet known. Whatever748 (talk) 14:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

"that the bombing's goal was to eliminate Deif" is a POV statement that needs to be attributed. Israel claims the bombing's goal was to kill Deif, while sources in the Arab world claim Israel's goal was to massacre Palestinians indiscriminately. This is somewhat the reverse situation of the 2023 October 7 attacks, whereby some Arab sources claimed the goal was not to kill civilians, but Israel and most of the rest of the world disagree.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:03, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request: Mention the death of Rafa Salama in the infobox

• The infobox currently states "Unknown" under Outcomes, as well as "90 Palestinians killed 300 injured" under Casualties. This should be changed to include mention of the death of Rafa Salama, who was a secondary target of the strike, who has been confirmed dead.:
• Rafa Salama was a senior Hamas commander and a secondary target of the strike, who was successfully targeted. Although Muhammad Deif's fate is currently unknown, the death of Rafa Salama is of significance and means that the assassination strike was at least partially successful.:
• Source: BBC News:

Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 11:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Where does BBC News confirm Salama's death? It says "Israeli military says senior Hamas commander Rafa Salama was killed in an air strike in Gaza on Saturday. Hamas has not confirmed the report."VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 12:04, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

References