Talk:24 Hours of Lemons

teh awesome!!!111one!

I'm a major motorsport fan from the San Francisco area, and I never thought I'd see anyone do a Wikipedia article on this. Kudos, t3h awesome, to those responsible for writing it and expanding it, and getting it on the front page of Wikipedia. FCYTravis (talk) 03:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Article severely edited due to rubbish material

I can't believe I had to "dumb down" the article because of the amount of rubbish some people put into the article. I understand the slapstick nature of the races, but this is Wikipedia, and not everyone would appreciate the comedy that was interjected into the article. If your gonna add material, please read up on the various Wikipedia Policies. We have rules here. --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 10:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Schedule

Seems like the 24 Hours of LeMons#Schedule should be either be removed or rewritten as WP:PROSE. Right now, only the races for 2009 to 2012 are listed and only the 2012 races are sourced. (Those citations are embedded citations and they probably need to be cleaned up as well). If someone adds the races for 2013 to 2016 in the same format, the article will really start to get bloated.

Maybe a short paragraph on each year's race supported by a citation a reliable source (perhaps an official page showing the schedule) could replace the lists. For example,

The 2009 LeMons consisted of 10 races at various racetracks across the country from February 28 until November 22: Houston Gator-O-Rama (MSR Houston, February 28 – March 1), LeMons South Spring (Carolina Motorsports Park, April 4–5, (....).

might flow better than a bullet list. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:58, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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LeMons vs. LEMONS

@Doctor jacob: Can you please explain why you think the name of the article needs to be changed? Articles are named in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME, so changing a name is typically a major change that should be discussed. Feedback should be solicited from other editors and a consensus should be established for the name change. Changing the name within the article is pointless without changing the name of the article itself, and that requires a page move. In addition, all caps are typically not allowed for article names as explained in WP:ALLCAPS and WP:TMRULES. I am not suggesting the name cannot ever be changed; only that you need to discuss why before doing so per WP:CAUTIOUS. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:45, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

@Lammbaa: Assuming that you are not Doctor jacob, the above also applies to your edits. If there has been a formal name change, then this should be verified by adding citations to reliable sources. Information can be added about this name change and the reasons it was made to the article along with supporting sources. However, changing the title of the article is more complicated and require a move, and the same goes for changing the file name of the infobox logo. Moves are more complicated and may require an adminstrator's help in some cases. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:04, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

YouTube Channel

I added a couple of paragraphs about the recurring YouTube series produced by the 24 Hours of Lemons organizers. I included a "features and expressions" subsection, inspired by a section by the same title on the Roadkill (web series) Wikipedia article. Admittedly, it's hard to find 3rd party sources about the YouTube video series. I did my best to at least include references to example videos (and timestamps within the videos) that contain the themes that I have described here. Feedback appreciated. Hwd3400 (talk) 06:38, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 22 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 04:58, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

---

24 Hours of LeMons → 24 Hours of Lemons – this racing series changed the capitalization of one letter down to lower case (the "M" in Lemons) back in November, 2016. I would normally move the page, but it won't let me because the name isn't different (page already existis). Jcordle (talk) 02:18, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:02, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

• @Jcordle and BarrelProof: queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:04, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
• That seems like something that definitely needs discussion. The rationale is not phrased in a way that is relevant to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. --⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:42, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support the copyright notice uses "24 Hours of Lemons" while the logo is in all caps so unless there's a good reason to due to other sources it seems even primary sources do not use this since the fruit isn't written with an "M" in caps. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:09, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

  The capital "M" is clearly part of the play on words between the name of this race and that of 24 Hours of Le Mans. Apparently, primary sources stopped using it only because the owners of the trademark for the other race series got irritated about that. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:33, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Most people without subject-matter knowledge will assume that it's about a yellow sour fruit with slightly pointed ends under the new spelling... AnonMoos (talk) 02:14, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: I looked through the cited sources, and clearly most of them have "LeMons" or "LeMONS" – not "Lemons". Most of them were being misrepresented in the citations – it seems like someone must have gone through and lowercased all of the "M"s without regard to what was in the source itself. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

  And now it appears that the nominator has started removing some of those citations. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:16, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

  That's correct, BarrelProof. I have been updating old, stale reference links that were pointing to broken pages. Jcordle (talk) 16:23, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

  Old references should generally be retained, not removed, if the only problem is that they are not live links anymore. Cited sources don't even need to be online sources in general (see WP:LINKROT and WP:OFFLINE). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:32, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

  After examining the edit history, I just confirmed that the nominator just went through the article and changed "LeMons" and "LeMONS" to "Lemons" throughout, including changing the titles of cited sources in a manner contrary to what was in those sources, just two days before filing this RM. See this edit referring to "part of an IP agreement". Wikipedia is presumably not a signatory of the referenced IP agreement and is not obligated to follow it. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:45, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

  I understand. Yes, I went in and updated LeMons to Lemons. As a participant in the race series, the "LeMons" moniker (pronounced "lemons") hasn't been used in almost 5 years. I wasn't aware that we should keep old references, so I replaced them with the latest links for those topics (I still have a few to update). As for the IP agreement, the IP agreement was the impetus for the change (as told to me directly from the owner of the race series), but I agree that no one is required to abide by that except the parties involved. Given that, however, wouldn't we want the name of the article to match the name of the organization? Jcordle (talk) 18:00, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

  The principle on Wikipedia is to use the WP:COMMONNAME found in independent reliable sources, not the WP:OFFICIALNAME that is self-published by the producer of the subject. What we should look for, therefore, is material that is reliable and independent. Are there any independent reliable sources that have discussed this event since 2016? (I suggest to read the material at the various links that I have been providing in my comments.) Also, regarding old links and old information, Wikipedia is not just interested in current information. Old sources can be useful for documenting aspects of history that are not reflected in the latest news. Also, some of the sources you added seem like they may not be considered "reliable" under Wikipedia guidelines. You definitely should not replace more reliable sources with less reliable ones, even if the less reliable ones are more "correct" in your opinion. When in doubt, retain old sources when adding new ones. You also should definitely not change the content of referenced titles or quotes merely to reflect your preference for what they should have said or what you think they might say if they were newer (although such phenomena as all-caps for a complete cited title or author name should be changed to a more conventional styling). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

  OK, that makes sense. The one main correction I am after is the pronunciation of "Le Mons" to "Lemons" and the written references therin. Both officially and unofficially, the people involved say "Lemons" (just like the fruit, in large part because of the "lemons" reference to a used, crappy broken down car). So, I can certaily updated references and sources to point to more unofficial and casual references to that end. Is that more advisable? Does that change this process here? Thanks for the advice.Jcordle (talk) 18:35, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

  Please be careful to make sure "unofficial and casual" doesn't include "unreliable" – see WP:Reliable sources. Also see WP:ABOUTSELF, which allows sources that might otherwise be considered unreliable in cases where uncontroversial information about a topic is self-published by its originator. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:02, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Resubstituted RM template to try to fix malformed request. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 05:57, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support - Per the New York Times, Car and Driver, Jalopnik, New Hampshire magazine, Autoweek, and the Sonoma Index-Tribune. Sources clearly prefer "Lemons" over "LeMons". HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 23:46, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support – It really is a race of lemons and the LeMons pun just confused a lot of people. Five years after the change, it's clear that sources have followed, and so should we. Dicklyon (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support per evidence of HumanBodyPiloter5. The sources are probably as good as we will get in respect to WP:RS. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:39, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.