Talk:30 West 44th Street/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Neopeius (talk · contribs) 02:40, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

This excellent stuff. I have some questions/suggestions:

• The adjacent block of 44th Street is known as Club Row, which contains several clubhouses.[5] When 30 West 44th Street was developed at the beginning of the 20th century, several other clubhouses were being built in the area.[6] By the early 1900s, these other clubs included the New York Yacht Club, Harvard Club, New York City Bar Association, Century Association,[7][8] and the City Club of New York,[9] **all of which remained in the area at the end of the 20th century**.[10] Prior to the development of 30 West 44th Street, the neighborhood contained a slaughterhouse, stables for stagecoach horses, and a train yard for the elevated Sixth Avenue Line.[11] There were historically many stagecoach stables on 43rd and 44th Streets between Fifth and Sixth Avenues,[12] but only a few of the stables remained **by the end of the 20th century**.[11][12]

(emphasis added) Is there a reason your description ends more than twenty years ago? Is that the most recent date of your sources?

Yeah, this is the date given by the New York Times. After the end of the 20th century, there really wasn't any new development on the block, other than the Harvard Club's annex, which replaced two of the stables (although this may not be relevant to the article). Otherwise, the block looks much the same as it did in 2000. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Pity. It's not such an issue for the latter factoid, but it sticks out for the former. I won't hold up GA for it, but if you go for FAC, I might find a newer source -- or publish an article with your photographs in it. ;)

• The current building replaced smaller structures at 30 and 32 West 44th Street.[13][14]

I'd put this earlier in the section (perhaps the first sentence) since it reflects the prior state of the site rather than the current condition. Alternatively, it could be part of the first sentence of the next section.

I have done that. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• "The building was predated by numerous multi-story clubhouses, such as the University Club of New York, but these designs generally deemphasized the clubhouses' heights.[16]"

I'm not sure what you mean by "deemphasized the clubhouses' heights."

I've changed this. The University Club, for example, was designed to appear as a 3-story building when it was really 9 stories tall. By contrast, the Yale Club was intended to be a 11-story building from the start. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

How about "but these clubhouses were generally designed to resemble low-rise buildings, downplaying their height."

• With regard to the facade, it seems to have undergone many changes, but is now substantially what it was in the beginning based on "The interior was completely rebuilt and was expanded to 14 stories, but the facade was restored to its original condition."

Suggest: "30 West 44th Street's current facade is largely similar to the one is was built with, although there were significant changes made between its housing the Yale Club and the Penn Club. The building's facade is largely made of brick and Indiana limestone..." or something along those lines.

I have reworded this to something similar. You are correct that the facade has undergone many changes, although these changes generally weren't major. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• Features: I take it you don't have information on the interior of the building between its use as the Yale and Penn clubs?
  • I do not. The NY Times did report on how the building was used during World War II, but there wasn't any architectural description of the building's interior, strictly speaking. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• "Men are required to wear jackets and ties in the main dining room,"

The cite article is not explicit, but it is clear that women also have to dress up. Since you mention male clothing requirements, I recommend referencing female requirements as well. Otherwise, it reads as if the Penn Club is male-only, which it is not.

Yeah, I checked the source and it actually doesn't call out men explicitly. Ironically, the social clubs in the area originally were male-only until the 1960s-1970s (but not the Penn Club), so maybe that's why I made the assumption. I have removed this now. Epicgenius (talk)

• "To accommodate the growing membership, the Yale Club unsuccessfully attempted to acquire an existing building in midtown Manhattan.[26]"

Suggest: "To accommodate the growing membership, the Yale Club had unsuccessfully attempted to acquire an existing building in midtown Manhattan before deciding on a new construction.[26]

I have done something similar. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• "By 1925, DKE wished to sell the building at 30 West 44th Street."

"...in favor of bigger/more modern/less roachy quarters"?

I've clarified this now. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• "30 West 44th Street became the Civilian Naval Reserve Center after the war ended."

Still an office and recreation center and billet for 2-300 sailors? Or did its role/constitution change?

Yeah, at least until December 1947. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• "The ninth floor contained various offices, while the 77th Infantry Division took up the top two stories.[97][100]"

I can see how an administrative division might have office space in a building, but how is a division housed in a building? Was it just the administrative/HQ staff? A cadre of GIs? A really cramped 20,000 men?

It was just the staff. The division was inactivated in 1946 (so there were no soldiers), and the 77th Infantry Division had relatively few people left at the time. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• "The New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission (LPC) considered designating 30 West 44th Street as a city landmark in mid-2009,[127] and the LPC formally designated the Penn Club building as a landmark on February 9, 2010.[128]"

How about: "he New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission (LPC) considered designating 30 West 44th Street a city landmark in mid-2009,[127] formally doing so on February 9, 2010.[128]"

Done. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• "Including furnishings, the clubhouse had cost $300,000.[28]" Is there any way to get this Note closer to the section it references:
  • This is actually part of a footnote, which was placed immediately after the sentence for which it was used as a source. I'll move this text out of the footnote. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Text review complete. Saving and moving on. --Neopeius (talk) 03:29, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

1. B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

• The pictures are good--I suggest putting dates directly on the captions of the picture (e.g. "Detail of the outermost windows on the third story-2021")

2. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

@Neopeius: Thanks for the review. I have addressed all the issues you brought up, including the image captions. Epicgenius (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

@Epicgenius: You sure did! I made one final suggestion (and a comment). I am clearing this as a pass, though. Congratulations! --Neopeius (talk) 21:04, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

@Neopeius, thank you very much. I really appreciate the review.

Sorry to bother you about this, but if you are passing this nomination, do you mind replacing {{GA nominee}} with {{GA}} on the talk page, per Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Instructions#Passing? The article won't show up as a good article otherwise. Thanks once again. – Epicgenius (talk) 18:28, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

@Epicgenius: Sorry about that. I'd forgotten how... --Neopeius (talk) 04:16, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

No problem, and thanks again. – Epicgenius (talk) 04:23, 27 November 2022 (UTC)