Talk:369th (Croatian) Infantry Division

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Croatian 369th devision was a division made of Croatian and Bosnian soldiers. Not mutch is known about 369 exept that they took part in battle of Lenningrad and Stalingrad being the only non german devision inside of the city. On the end of battle of Stalingrad only remains of remains whare left, muny of surviving soldiers joind partisans on the end of the war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ante Mijic saposnjik (talk • contribs) 09:15, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

G'day and welcome to Wikipedia. You are confusing the 369th (Croatian) Infantry Division which fought only in the NDH, and the 369th Croatian Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht) which was part of the German 100th Light Infantry Division and fought at the Second Battle of Kharkov and was destroyed at Stalingrad. Survivors evacuated wounded or on leave at the time of Stalingrad were used to form the division with the same number as the regiment. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:28, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

It is a pity not to quote any source concerning the Chetniks (Units, brigades, names of the commanders?) because if one follows the communist propaganda of the time, all the Chetniks collaborated, which is currently denied because it is part of the post-war Titism communist propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supranosor (talk • contribs) 19:33, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

This article needs considerable work and needs many more citations to reliable sources, but such information is probably available in Schraml at least. He is German, and has no axe to grind regarding Yugoslav communist propaganda. Western sources agree that not all Chetniks collaborated, but many did. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:29, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Bosnian Muslims in the 369th (Croatian) Infantry Division

@Tezwoo: Apart from the Croatian Magazine’s source, you provided I could not find any other sources that mention Bosnian Muslims in the 369th Div. not even the Croatian wiki. I read about the Bosnian battalion in the 369th Reinforced Regiment but nothing about this unit, I'm not 100% convinced it should be in the lead. Can you provide other/better sources? Thanks, Aeengath (talk) 18:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

The Croatian Wiki article doesn't mention the ethnic composition of the division at all. Neither did the English Wiki article until you added that information, which is fine, but the source you cited (Brnardić and Aralica 2016) doesn't specifically mention the ethnic composition of the 369th Division. I thought about removing that information, but since many other articles on WW2 Yugoslav units have an ethnic structure, I added an additional source that does talk about the ethnic composition of the division. It's not a Croatian magazine, it's a Bosnian journal ("Gračanički glasnik", from Gračanica, Bosnia and Herzegovina). This source on page 70 also mentions the recruitment of Bosniaks in northeastern Bosnia, and is from the same journal.

Regarding this edit you made, I'm not sure what did you mean by "the division operated alongside another Croatian Legion, the 369th (Croatian) Infantry Division". The "369th (Croatian) Infantry Division" is this article, did you mean alongside other legionnaire units? As for Brnardić and Aralica page 3, they alternate between the terms "Croats", "Croatians", and "Croats and other inhabitants of the ISC", using vague wording. They don't say that these legionnaire units were only or mostly composed of ethnic Croats. Tezwoo (talk) 21:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok sorry I could not tell where the journal was from, that's why I believe it's always best (on the English wiki) to use English sources unless no other sources available. I don't think the wording in Brnardić and Aralica is vague for example about the 373rd they say on page 22 that: during 18–22 August more than 100 Croat and Bosnian Muslim soldiers deserted for a variety of reasons, and the desertion rate worsened after the capitulation of Italy. Also Tomasevich doesn't mention Bosniaks (...) members of the Wehrmacht included men from the 369th,373rd, and 392nd Infantry Divisions (the legionnaire divisions). These were initially made up of Croatian soldiers and German officers and specialists I'm not saying it's impossible but since it's around the same time that the 13th Waffen SS was raised it's worth finding more sources Aeengath (talk) 22:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

"Croatian soldiers" doesn't mean "ethnic Croat soldiers". See the example of Brnardić and Aralica page 3: "In the Waffen-SS, Croatians served in the 13. Waffen-Gebirgs Division der SS 'Handschar’ and the largely abortive 23. Waffen-Gebirgs Div der SS ‘Kama’." As SS Handschar and SS Kama were composed largely of Bosnian Muslims, "Croatian" here more likely has the meaning of citizen of the NDH rather than an ethnic label. On page 4 they go on to say: "Croats and other inhabitants of the ISC also volunteered to serve within many German units, but their precise numbers and personal records are now lost to history."

According to the second source I linked on page 72, SS Handschar initially recruited volunteers, but as their numbers did not meet the requirements, the unit was filled with Home Guard conscripts (the regular army) and other NDH units. They did not draw men from the legionnaire units. Tezwoo (talk) 23:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

yes it's possible although I doubt that Tomasevich would have Croats and Croatians confused anyway I agree with all that I just think it would be worth trying to find more sources (in english) mentionning it. Aeengath (talk) 11:24, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

[1] This is actually about the 369th Croatian Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht), not the Devil's Division. Tezwoo (talk) 15:29, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

thanks! fixed Aeengath (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2021 (UTC)