Talk:5/16 inch star

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May 20, 2008 The example of using the Award Star for subsequent Achievement medals is in direct contradiction to the Wikipedia Achievement Medal page, which indicates the use of Oak leaf Clusters for subsequent awards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achievement_Medal —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steveo1544 (talk • contribs) 21:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

September 01, 2005 Is there a difference between a service star and an award star? They appear to be referring to the identical thing. Anyone able to clear this up and/or fix? -unsigned anon user —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.146.237.163 (talk • contribs) 01:11, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Answered over on the service star article. -Husnock 03:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Joint Meritorious Unit Award (JMUA)

Hello, YahwehSaves. I noticed you reverted my removal of the JMUA with a citation to DoDM 1348.33 Vol 3 after I cited DoDM 1348.33 Vol 1, which only lists the OLC as the device for annotating subsequent awards of the JMUA on pages 57 & 58. Sure enough, I can see on page 53 of Vol 3 that the JMUA is listed at the tail end - much to my surprise, as it seems to contradict Vol 1. I didn't expect to see that, and the chart on page 50 of Vol 3 lists only the OLC as an authorized device for the JMUA, another contradiction in the same directive manual. This made me turn to Chapter 5 of the Navy implementation regulation; on page 5-46, it authorizes the wear of Oak Leaf Clusters for the JMUA, but not stars. This would lead me to believe that although page 53 of the DoD Manual appears to authorize it, the Navy chooses not to in its implementation. Do you agree with this interpretation, or do you have a different explanation? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:49, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

JMUA (P. 53, in order of U.S. Military Award precedence) is authorized 5/16 Inch Stars in the 2010 DoD Manual 1348.33 (Vol. 3, Page 49--"The devices that have been authorized for wear on the service and suspension ribbons of Defense/Joint awards and the DoD-wide awards are described in this section" --> Page 50-51 (P. 50, 2, "13" is missing?), Page 52-53 (oak leaf clusters and 5/16 inch stars), "(13) JMUA". Looks to me that "13" (P. 51, see "13." in box) was accidently omitted from P. 50?:

• Vol. 1 Manual of Military Decorations and Awards: General Information, Medal of Honor and, and Defense/Joint Decorations and Awards
• Vol. 2 Manual of Military Decorations and Awards. DoD Service Awards
• Vol. 3 Manual of Military Decorations and Awards: DoD-Wide Performance and Valor Awards

Its been known the Army & Air Force use oak leaf clusters and the Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard use the 5/16 inch stars. The DoD made a major change in 2010 with a new manual (then added some changes or corrections in 2011 in Vol. 1; more changes coming?). The "Navy 5-46" you referred to is outdated (2003) and refers to oak leaf clusters and also "5/16 inch stars" for the JMUA as attachments (currently, devices). It also adds 3/16" stars to the PUC when currently the PUC adds 5/16" stars. I assume if a sailor or Marine was attached to an Army unit and got a 2nd JMUA award serving with them, then he would have an authorized OLC to show that (?). The current DoD award info takes priority over Navy award info which would have to go along with the DoD's info. A review of what exactly a JMUA is may help in this matter. Its not one of the common awards a person got. I added info to the Articles Introduction and Information sections to help. YahwehSaves (talk) 02:19, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Simply stated: yes, DoDM 1348.33 Vol 3 contradicts itself. Table 1 reflects the only authorized device is the Oak Leaf Cluster. However paragraph d. of section 14 states the Service Star is also authorized. In concert with the former,Navy Uniform Regulation, Chapter 5, Section 16 authorizes oak leaf clusters but not service stars. The next step would be to find out if the DoD regulation made a mistake before officially stating the authorized wear of the Award Star. Bullmoosebell (talk) 08:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I think the former should repond (HAVE RESPONDED FIRST) to me since he purposely in good faith asked me if I agree with him and its propler to see what he has to say before you start interfering and changing things w/o good faith because you feel like it. Navy 5-46 is out dated which you chose to ignore. Current Navy-Marine Manual is SECNAVINST 1650.1H, 2006. The DoD Manaul 2010 is set up for all the military awards manauls for referencing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs) 09:06, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

We're all here to improve Wikipedia, and sorting out these kinds of items can be confusing. Let's all WP:AGF. I didn't know there was an updated Navy-Marine manual, so I went and took a quick look at it just now. You can find a copy of SECNAVINST 1650.1H here. On page 1-10, paragraph 123, subsection 3b, we find the following (italics added for emphasis):

Oak Leaf Cluster. The oak-leaf cluster, which is issued in two sizes and colors, is worn on the service and suspension ribbons of all Defense, Army, and Air Force decorations and the Joint Meritorious Unit Award. The larger size (13/32 inch) is worn on the suspension ribbon of the medal and the smaller size (5/16 inch) on the service ribbon and suspension ribbon of the miniature medal. The bronze oak-leaf cluster is used for the 2nd through 5th, 7th through 10th awards, and so forth. A silver oak-leaf cluster is used for the 6th, 11th and so forth, entitlement or award in lieu of five bronze oak-leaf clusters.

Hence, I believe we've found our answer. Although the DoD is the higher authority over the individual service departments, it is left to the service departments to decide how to implement the DoD directives, and at present, the Navy and Marine Corps implementation directs that USN and USMC personnel will wear oak leaf clusters on Defense medals and the JMUA. As an aside, I also know this from personal observation having been in a joint unit when a JMUA was awarded. Unless anyone has any further points they'd like to raise or bring up, we should probably close this out by amending the sentence "They are not issued for service medals, which receive service stars." to read "They are not issued for service medals, which receive service stars, nor are they issued for Department of Defense medals, for which all service members receive oak leaf clusters." Further, we should strike the following medals from the article's list: Defense Distinguished Service Medal, Defense Superior Service Medal, Defense Meritorious Service Medal, Joint Service Commendation Medal, and Joint Service Achievement Medal. Sound good? AzureCitizen (talk) 15:13, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I like it. Make it happen. Bullmoosebell (talk) 21:07, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

AzureCitizen, I found that prior to 1998 the Coast Guard used the 5/16" gold stars not the OLC. And it is still authorized for use by those individuals instead of the OLC. Why didn't/don't you use (you quoted from 2006 nave/Marine manual) the DoD OLC... info (?) I gave for Article introductions...information instead of you guys following and carelessly deleting what I do from the DoD manual which has instituted the DoD Military Awards Program (DoD 1348.33 V1-3) in effect since 2010 for the current definitions and titles since the military departments (DoD Components) were varing too long and too much (example, now "V" Device). DoD Defense/Joint Decorations and Awards apply to DoD Defense Decorations and awards.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

Hmmmmm, I thought we'd straightened this out and resolved the matter but now it sounds like you still disagree. Perhaps you can try to elaborate on what you're trying to say and frame your argument a bit more clearly. It seems to me that regardless of DoDM 1348.33 Vol 3's contradictory information (chart on page 50 versus list on page 53), which also does not square with DoDM 1348.33 Vol 1's page 57 and 58 which only authorizes the oak leaf cluster, this is a moot point because the Navy's implementation clearly tells sailors and marines that they will wear oak leaf clusters on "all defense decorations" and the Joint Meritorious Unit Award. Unless that SECNAVINST changes, it's definitive, even if DoDM 1348.33 has a contradictory entry in it (page 53 of Vol 3) which seems to be an error given what we know about Vol 3 page 50 and Vol 1 pages 57-58. Maybe someday the SECNAVINST will change, but it hasn't yet. If you still disagree, please make your points a bit more clear while also addressing the above. Thanks, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

You mean you thought you straightened this out making an argument instead of a disagreement now. The DoD boxed in #2 and not #13, 5/16" ribbon devices (not award device or awarded which you changed in Article) for the JMUA and the other defense awards for thier reason (not a mistake) but has the 5/16" star still authorized.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

You seem to be continuing to say that because Vol 3 says on page 56 that the 5/16" inch star is authorized for the JMUA, it's authorized. Again, in response, Vol 3 page 50 contradicts that, as well as Vol 1 which only authorizes the OLC, and the SECNAVINST which says that sailors and marines will wear oak leaf clusters on all defense decorations and JMUA's. In my opinion, if you're in the Navy or the Marine Corps, and you have multiple JMUA's, you are obliged to follow your service departments implementation of the DoD manuals (SECNAVINST 1650.1H) and wear oak leaf clusters, not 5/16 inch stars. AzureCitizen (talk) 20:11, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

DoD 1348.33, Vol 1, doesn't cover it all for the 5/16 inch star. Vol. 3 (P49-53), completes the authorized info for this device. I agree with Vol. 1 and Vol. 3 (Table 1, P. 50) which omitts all the 5/16 inch star devices for the other DoD awards there besides the JMUA. I also agree with Vol. 3, P. 53 (P.49/53) which includes the 5/16 inch stars for the other DoD awards there besides the JMUA unit award (no medal). I found the 5/16 inch star for the JMUA (formerly the DoD Meritorious Unit Award) was/is authorized for the Coast Guard prior to 1998. The Vol. 3, P. 53 information seems to indicate the 5/16 inch star was also authorized (and still authorized) previously for the other DoD awards listed there.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

I'm not really sure that we can infer that Vol. 3, page 53 was intended to indicate the 5/16 inch star is actually still authorized... frankly, it still just seems more like an inconsistency to me. Nonetheless, if 5/16 inch stars were authorized for the Coast Guard until 1998, we can work with that if we want to find a way to explain that in the article. In theory, if a reader comes to this page and reads up on the 5/16 inch star device, we want them to know what the current guidance is on the item's proper wear, but we could certainly add a subsection below the medal list that explains historical changes, with a sentence or two about the Coast Guard having regulations that directed the wear of 5/16 inch service stars on certain medals until 1998. We should probably start by finding a source (we only need one) that corroborates that. Do you recall where you remember reading it? AzureCitizen (talk) 15:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

DoD 1348.33-M, September, 1996: Chapter 10, C10.1.1., P. 87: "The Oak Leaf Cluster is worn on the service and suspension ribbon of all Defense decorations and the JMUA (with the exception of the Coast Guard)." I had found a site (can't locate) for the JMUA ("formerly the DoD MUA") that said the 5/16 inch stars were authorized before 1998 for the Coast Guard and still authorized for those that had received the 5/16 inch star for the JMUA before 1998. They are entitled to the authorized OLC anytime after 1998 as an availble option to them. This would more or less justify DoDM 1348.33 Vol. 3, P. 52--53 ("49"--53), the 5/16 inch star for all the DoD decorations and the JMUA (P. 53) as its listed there wouldn't it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves / 75.79.31.20 (talk • contribs)

I'm still thinking that P. 53 of Vol 3 is a mistake (clerical error), otherwise the other locations in the Volumes would reflect similar information (i.e., we wouldn't be seeing Vol 1 explicitly stating that the OLC is the authorized device for subsequent awards of the JMUA with no reference to the 5/16 inch star), and the Navy/Marine manual continues to be pretty clear on the subject. Furthermore, even if the Coast Guard authorized personnel to wear 5/16 inch stars on the JMUA prior to 1998, the current Coast Guard Instruction Manual 1650.25D (dated May 2008) indicates on page 1-16 that oak leaf clusters are worn on joint awards... hence, if you were in the Coast Guard and had one prior to 1998, and were subsequently still in today, you'd have to swap your stars out for OLC's, right? Nonetheless, we could still say something about it in the article for historical context if we could find a reference that at least documents that prior to 1998, 5/16 inch stars were authorized for JMUA's for Coast Guard personnel. Your thoughts? AzureCitizen (talk) 03:11, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

If there were no indents the talk column would be shorter. The missing ref page I referenced... those awarded the JMUA award (was originally a DoD award) with the 5/16 inch star attachment prior to 1998 can still keep/wear the 5/16 inch gold star attachment (DoDM (2010-11) V3, p 49/52-53). They are eligible for the OLC since 1998, they don't "have" to get/wear the OLC. N&M 1650.1H is 2006. You can at least add the Vol. 3&DoDM 1996 info to the 5/16 inch star article if you like.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

I'm thinking it would be best to find a reference saying Coast Guard personnel were awarded the star prior to 1998, then add a historical statement after the list of medals to explain it. AzureCitizen (talk) 21:01, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Award Star --> 5/16 Inch Star

Okay, fellow editors, I had a bit of an epiphany when looking at the current DoDM 1348.33-V3 and SECNAVINST 1650.1H again and realized that these devices aren't officially called "award stars", they are actually referred to as "5/16 inch stars" in the former and just "stars" in the latter... so I got WP:BOLD and moved the article accordingly. This way, the article for the device is actually listed under its correct name... and if a reader searches for "award star", there is a redirect that will still bring them here. Good move, or bad move? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:25, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

None of the manuals I don't think use the title award star or awards device yet you now promote that the 5/16" star is awarded ("awarded by and awarded for"). Please explain that. I had it is a "ribbon device" (Article introduction) from the manual and defined it correctly there using the manual's words. Improving the article(s) seems to mean mostly deletion (others personal preferences) I see now in favor of confusion (so much against the DoD Manual). You refer (prefer)to decorations and medals for a 5/16 inch star (your awarded award device) w/o giving what medals that are not decorations get a 5/16" star? — Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

Can't really make out what you're driving at here. Yes, none of the manuals use the term "award star", while it is referred to in the regulations as a "5/16 inch star". What is it exactly that you're seeking to be "explained" there? AzureCitizen (talk) 20:16, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

The Article here has a photo box of the two 5/16" stars - "awarded by, awarded for, currently awarded" when none of the manuals say its awarded or an award. The "Award Device" Article needs correction and improvement too since its a ribbon device.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

You're probably talking about the military award infobox template, which is more or less used globally on Wikipedia for military awards, medals, ribbons, devices, etc. There isn't a way to change that unless the template itself is changed, which will affect every article in which the template appears. Personally, I'm not too concerned if the infobox on this article and other device articles say "Awarded by" or something similar, as we don't say anywhere in actual text of the article that a 5/16 inch star is an "award," instead we say it is an award device. Maybe someone will get motivated someday and create a new, alternate, military award infobox, perhaps called an "award device infobox", which will have a template field for "Issued by" instead of "Awarded by"? Something to consider. With regard to it being a "ribbon device", it's usually referred to as an award device because it's actually worn on both, i.e., worn on the suspension ribbons of actual awards plus the ribbon bars themselves. AzureCitizen (talk) 01:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

You mean called an award device or an award's device. What about decoration device? Ribbon device seems the best to me and used that way now in the manual.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

Taking a close look at Volume 1-3 of DoDM 1348.33, apparently the actual name is just "device"... the phrase "award device" appears once and the phrase "ribbon device" appears zero times. Funny, huh? I will tweak the article accordingly in my next edit and reduce the two redundant sentences about the USA/USAF OLCs to a single sentence. Good work on catching the other stuff. AzureCitizen (talk) 04:51, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I was looking for "ribbon devices" or "service ribbon devices" which sounds good to me since I saw it used somewhere. Tell me what page "award star" is on in the DoD manual? Its rare to find that term anywhere. The Navy and Marine current Manual uses Silver Star Medal (its on WW2, Korea, and Vietnam servicemens' award citations that way) and the DoD Manual V1&V3 uses Silver Star and Silver Star Medal a few times in different places. I put Silver Star "medal" here but you deleted it but that way is used common enough and improves what's said in the Article. They made it a Gold Star Medal though its not called that.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

"Award star" does not appear anywhere in DoDM 1348.33, hence the reason for moving the page from "award star" to "5/16 inch star" which does appear in DoDM1348.33. "Award device" appears only once, on page 16 of Vol 3. Currently, the correct name of the medals are the "Silver Star" and the "Bronze Star Medal" (check out page 63 and 64 of Vol 1). Then take note that on page 13 of Vol 1, they say "The Silver Star medal is the third highest valor decoration...", while references to the other medal use the words "the Bronze Star Medal". Notice how with the Silver Star, the word "medal" is lowercase, while with the Bronze Star Medal, the "m" in medal is uppercase? This is because they are using the word descriptively in the former and part of the actual medal name in the latter. So, it's okay to use the word "medal" behind "Silver Star" if it's done in lowercase. Note that in the corresponding Wikipedia article on the Silver Star, however, it always appears simply as the "Silver Star." Nonetheless, its no big deal to me either way if we put "medal" (lowercase) after the text in this article.

Do you know how to use indents, and how to sign your comments? To use indents, just add colons (":") to the front of your postings to indent over for replying to a comment above what you're writing. To sign your posts, just add four tildes ("~") at the very end and Wikipedia will sign your comment automatically. AzureCitizen (talk) 12:50, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

DoD 1348.33, Vol. 3, P. 16, "award device", is written only one time in the whole DoD Manual (Vol. 1-3), like you said. It is not in the other service award manuals I looked at. In this one time instance, the 5/16 inch star as an "award device" is used for the LOM decoration in reference that its not authorized for LOM medals awarded to foreign military personal.
. The "Silver Star Medal" (authorized 1942) is in DoD Manual 1348.33, Vol. 1 (Table Figure 11, P. 60), Vol. 2 (Table 2, P. 70), Vol. 3 (Table 1/4, P. 50/73). How do you explain that? Navy/Marine 1650.1H uses the "Silver Star Medal" only. Both the "Silver Star" and "Bronze Star" ("Bronze Star Medal" is still offical name) names are nicknames for the authorized 1942 Silver Star Medal and Bronze Star Medal (also "Navy Cross" for the original "Navy Cross Medal" I beleive). DoD Manual Vol. 1, Fig. 12, P.63 says, "Silver Star, a gold star medal, 1 1/2 inches in circumscribing diameter with a laurel wreath..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

To sign your posts, just add four tildes in a row at the very end before clicking "save page." If you want to see how your signature looks, just click "show preview" and you'll see how Wikipedia converts the four tildes into the signature. Give it a try! :) AzureCitizen (talk) 21:15, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I see the name I'm using (above in red) when I log in. I think you made a good move here relisting "5/16 inch star" (official name) instead of "Award star". Would you take a look and consider what to do about the "Valor device" article. Its officially named "V" Device (DoD Manual). My Article info for the V was from the DoD Manual 1348.33, V3 and it got deleted even though correct. Also See- Matt Urban, Talk > Valor device&Disruptive Edits. The "valor device" article isn't near correct as it should be and misleading ("known as the "V" device"). The "V" device is used as a combat distinguishing device (combat "V) by USN/USMC. The "V" attachment is not awarded.— Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

Conversation continued at the article Talk:Valor device for further discussion at that location... -- AzureCitizen (talk) 22:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

AzureCitizen, the one time mention of "subsequent award devices" (not "award device") is only in the 2010 DoD manual 1348.33, V3 (P. 16, (2) bottom): "Subsequent award devices are not authorized for wear on LOM medals awarded to foreign personnel". Since the LOM is a personal award, the term "subsequent award device" (not "award device") seems to apply only to personal awards (LOM) since "award device" or "subsequent award devices" is not mentioned for 3/16" star devices (sometimes used to denote subsequent awards) in any current award manual. There is no mention that a 5/16" or 3/16" star "may be awarded" or "Awarded for" in any manual. This article title had been, "Award Star" (implying its worn or used on personal awards) and was changed to the 5/16 inch star. "5/16 inch star" devise like oak leaf cluster device ("denotes a second or subsequent award"). DoD 1348. 33 V3, P. 1 (2) List of authorized "service devices" (Page 7, "V" device, 5/16 inch star...).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.31.20 (talk) 04:05, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Award Star Title

This really needs to be fixed. In everyday usage, the award devices are called "Gold stars" and "Silver Stars". for instance, if I have 3 Navy Achievement Medals, I would say, "I have a NAM with 2 gold stars". No one would walk around and say "I have a Navy Achievement Medal with 2 5/16 inch stars!" I'm not sure what the exact rules are on Wiki about this, i.e. use of terminology as depicted in regulations versus common speech and language, but the way the articles reads now, it just doesn't look right. -OberRanks (talk) 21:07, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

OberRanks, I have to agree with you. I think that WP:COMMONNAME would apply here, but finding a reliable source is the failing. So that takes us back to the stilted language of a DoD manual, the only RS we know to use. 5/16 inch star seems obscure, so that begs the question what would you call these devices collectively, and is there a reliable source? Being a Navy man you may be able to save us from ourselves by finding a good RS. EricSerge (talk) 23:42, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Gang, I hope this is helpful. It is copied from the Awards Training Instruction used by the Military Personnel Records Center, specifically an appendix of the primary awards guide which deals with award devices and how they should be listed on Freedom of Information Act responses.

The sea services of the United States Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard use similar award devices to the Army and the Air Force with the exception that the sea services do NOT issue oak leaf clusters to denote multiple awards of a personal decoration (sea service members may still receive oak leaf clusters for defense department and cross service decorations from other branches of service). In place of oak leaf clusters, the sea services issue gold and silver award stars. A gold star is issued for the award of a second decoration while a silver star replaces five gold (which occurs at the sixth award, eleventh, and so on).

I've seen numerous FOIA responses from the NPRC office which use this terminology. I hope this may serve to provide at least one source for this. -OberRanks (talk) 17:25, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

usage

eeeer ...any chance we could get a section describing why these are awarded ..im finding the article is unclear on this point

Tony Spike (talk) 11:45, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

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The 17th reward image looks reversed for gold and silver stars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.31.212.111 (talk) 09:54, 20 March 2018 (UTC)