Talk:7.62 Tkiv 85

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No move Parsecboy (talk) 13:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• 7.62 Tkiv 85 → 7.62 TKIV 85 — 7.62 TKIV 85 is the nomenclature currently used by the Finnish Defence Forces. — Francis Flinch (talk) 09:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. Personally I'm not too sure that the guidelines are correct, but looking at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks) it seems to me that Tkiv is the preferred capitalisation here. Andrewa (talk) 20:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The article reads TKIV stands for "tarkkuuskivääri henkilömaaleja vastaan" (Finnish: precision rifle, anti-personnel purpose). The TKIV term is also used as part of the official nomenclature of all other currently used precision rifles (7.62 TKIV Dragunov, 8.6 TKIV 2000 and ) by the Finnish Defence Forces, so TKIV is a describing abbrevation for a precision rifle. When 7.62 Tkiv 85 is googled several internet sources in Finnish emerge that almost exclusively use the TKIV abbrevation in capitals. Of course the Finnish and their writing preferences have nothing to do with Wikipedia or its guidelines.--Francis Flinch (talk) 07:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It's certainly derived from an abbreviation, but isn't it now a series designation? If so, shouldn't it be treated as a brand name? Andrewa (talk) 18:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

TKIV = tarkkuuskivääri = precision rifle. Precision rifle is a less martial, and I think a rather good, description of what EN Wikipedia terms as a sniper rifle. There are lots of brands of precision rifles, so TKIV is no brand name (for example 7.62 TKIV Dragunov = SVD rifle, 8.6 TKIV 2000 = TRG-42, 12.7 TKIV 2000 = Barrett M82) but an FDF designation for their various precision rifles. I am no Wikipedia conventions expert, but would it not be a nice idea to follow Finnish nomenclature in this case?--Francis Flinch (talk) 19:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd have to say no. Our policy here is to follow English usage. Andrewa (talk) 00:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

This got me to think regarding this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)#Acronyms_and_initialisms. If you think to leave it I can live with that.--Francis Flinch (talk) 10:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move?

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was do not move. This move request has been here 8 deys. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• 7.62 Tkiv 85 → 7.62 TKIV 85 — Name is an abbreviation for a Finnish term, should be capitalized. — Koalorka (talk) 18:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC) Koalorka
• This was proposed back in Sept. 08, see the talk page for details. You may want to create a discussion for it. Parsecboy (talk) 01:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
• This seems to be Wikipedia policy versus Finnish government armaments department policy. The letters "kiv" are lowercase presumably because they are lowercase in the original because Finnish here has one long compounded word for what in English would be spelled as separate words. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
• Here Tkiv for Finnish tarkkuuskivääri seems not to be an acronym but the initial and 3 letters taken from inside one word. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

• (edit conflict) Tricky... The MoS says to write a word in all caps if it's an acronym or initialism. Those are defined as: "abbreviations that are formed using the initial components in a phrase or name". Here, the phrase or name is "tarkkuuskivääri", and "Tkiv" uses the initial components of "tarkkuus" (accuracy) and "kivääri" (rifle), so in my book it would pass as an acronym. Based on this, I support the move proposal. Jafeluv (talk) 12:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• Curses, too late! :P Jafeluv (talk) 12:09, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Never to late. I proposed the move for consistency. It is an abbreviation. Koalorka (talk) 12:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

7.62x54R vs. 7.62x53R

I have looked through multiple sources and they all say that these two rounds are the same thing, just with a different designation and heres my proof

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo027.htm

look at the box around the middle of the page it says 7.62x53Rmm but it can be fired through a Mosin Nagant and any other 7.62x54R rifle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theburbonator (talk • contribs) 22:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Read the 7.62x53mmR and 7.62x54mmR articles and look at the cartridge dimensions. A good observer will see a lot of dimensions differ somewhat. The 53R is essentially slightly smaller dimensioned compared to the 54R. This makes them different cartridges made to different C.I.P. standards.

The C.I.P. rulings are the only relevant source regarding cartridges from Finland and Russia, since C.I.P. rulings have force of law in Finland and Russia. The C.I.P. also enforces the approval of all ammunition a manufacturer or importer intends to sell in any of the C.I.P. member states.

One of the things noticeable regarding the 7.62 TKIV 85 is that it is chambered for the Finnish 7.62x53mmR instead of the Russian 7.62x54mmR. The other Russian designed small arms in use by the FDF are chambered for internationally more common Russian chamberings like the 7.62x54mmR and 7.62x39mm.--Francis Flinch (talk) 08:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Either way, it looks like 7.62x53R was designed to be interchangeable with 54R, and FDF rifles chambered for 53R can shoot also 54R, or so state source http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/RIFLES3.htm Ape89 (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

It is the other way around the 7.62x53R can be fired out of 7.62x54R weapons with the chance of not obtaining good accuracy. The bullet diameter of 7.62x54R is larger compared to 7.62x53R. Using military steel-jacketed 54R Russian ammunition in weapons made for 53R Finnish is not recommended, as it may rapidly wear out a 53R barrel. Even worse, there is a possibility that the resulting pressure from the steel-jacketed larger diameter bullet is too much and firing it may result in severe damage to both the rifle and the shooter.--Francis Flinch (talk) 07:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

quote from site I linked: "New M/39 came to have following differences when compared to earlier M/28-30:

• Inside measurements of barrel were not as tight as in M/28-30 (to make using of captured Soviet ammunition with its thicker bullets unproblematic)."

as rifle M39 was designed for 7.62x53R it seems to me that 54R _could_ be used in rifles chambered for 53R. Ape89 (talk) 15:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The FDF just states on its official website these rifles are chambered for 7.62x53R. If 7.62x54R can be fired out of 7.62 Tkiv 85 rifles without issues will remain uncertain until the barrel dimensions of the barrels of individual rifles are measured and the rifles are test fired with slightly larger Russian bullets. Until thrust worthy documentation regarding the issueless use of 7.62x54R in 7.62 Tkiv 85 rifles emerges everything else remains speculation. It is however unlikely a precision rifle can be shot accurately with dimensionally clearly various kinds of ammunition, since uniform ammunition is an important factor in obtaining good accuracy and consistency. The 7.62 Tkiv 85 rifle is however no normal standard Russian or Finnish made Mosin-Nagant rifle. It was designed and build in the 1980s around original old Mosin-Nagant receivers (bolt actions). The used stocks, barrels, etc. are not old and the resulting 7.62 Tkiv 85 rifle is a much heavier design compared to standard Russian or previously Finnish made Mosin-Nagant type rifles. If you study the right picture in the gallery carefully you can see the barrels on every rifle are not exactly the same (the sights on the muzzles are sometimes absent). Remind active precision rifle operators (like snipers) regard barrels as expendable items, since they wear out over thousands of practice shots. When a precision rifle starts the shoot less accurate due to barrel wear it gets its barrel replaced.--Francis Flinch (talk) 17:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

And 7.62x54R is called 53R in official Finnish sources.

I found quote from 7.62x53mmR, if this is false information then it should be corrected: "The 7.62x53mmR is practically interchangeable with the 7.62x54mmR, the 54R will fit into the smallest allowed chamber size for the 53R, but is nevertheless a different cartridge made to different C.I.P. standards. Using military steel-jacketed 54R Russian ammunition in weapons made for 53R Finnish is not recommended, as it may rapidly wear out the barrel."

meaning that weapons using 53R are designed from the beginning to allow usage of 54R, but it's not recommended.

Ape89 (talk) 19:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Russian 7.62 x 54 R; dimensions are official C.I.P. maximal allowed dimensions

Finnish 7.62 x 53 R; dimensions are official C.I.P. maximum allowed dimensions.

Both cartridges have their own datasheets in the C.I.P. TDDC database and are by law for around 500 million civilians in the world not the same. Amongst the C.I.P. member states that distinguish by force of law these 2 cartridges as different for civilians are Finland and Russia. Maybe the idea behind the 53R was Russians can not use captured Finnish rifles without risk with 54R, whilst the Finnish should be able to safely use captured Russian rifles with 53R. As you idicated the FDF might play non C.I.P., conform nomenclature games with their ammunition, since armies are not obliged to conform to C.I.P. rulings. Maybe the FDF feels better by stating using Finnish designed 53R cartridges whilst actually using the Russian designed 54R parent cartridge. However I can not imagine a precision rifle that can shoot well with ammunition produced for two clearly differently dimensioned throat eras and junction cones. Precision rifles are carefully designed and constructed to obtain tight tolerances to align the intended ammunition/projectiles well to the bore centre axis to facilitate consistent accurate shooting. For civilian use in non C.I.P. member states I would not recommend loading 54R in a 53R designated fire arm before having that fire arm dimensionally thoroughly checked.--Francis Flinch (talk) 14:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

My point wasn't whether use of 54R in rifle designed for 53R is safe, but that my original statement (that 54R and 53R are interchangeable and that 54R could be used in rifle chambered for 53R) is, provided 7.62x53mmR contains correct information, proven to be correct, as you can see from my comment, I agree that 53R and 54R are two differend cartridges, but, according to information based on two differend sources, if rifle chambered for 53R follows standards, 54R will fit into it's chamber, it may affect to accuracy of rifle, and seems to rapidly wear out the barrel, but nevertheless it will fit, if you disagree, prove that those sources I have provided are wrong, I can see that dimensions of cartridges do differ, and I never stated that they wouldn't. Ape89 (talk) 12:48, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

If you are a civilian and used 54R ammunition in a 53R marked fire arm in a C.I.P. member state you just broke the law and if it gets noticed by officials you can expect legal problems. In theory a minimal C.I.P. conform 53R chamber gives problems when loading a maximum C.I.P. conform 54R cartridge at R1 (14,43 53R min. chamber vs. 14,48 mm 54R max. cartridge) and Commencement of rifling 53R G1 min. 7.89 mm). A lot of other dimensions fit with 0,00 mm tolerance. In normal language this means the rim and bullet might not fit (resulting in rapid barrel wear and possible Pmax issues) and at many other datum references there is not any room for dimensional production tolerances. In practice the chamber dimensions are generally cut/reamed somewhat larger than the minimal C.I.P. dimensions, so it is likely one can chamber a 54R carridge in a 53R chamber (though not advisable for civilians in C.I.P. member states) without issues. The problem I have with the web sources you quoted is they deal with various historic FDF rifles, but not specifically with the 7.62 TKIV 85. I never saw specific detailed information regarding the chambers and barrel dimensions of the 7.62 TKIV 85 or an official FDF source claiming the 7.62 TKIV 85 can use 54R. This is not strange, since this is technical information intended for arms design, production and quality control.--Francis Flinch (talk) 14:19, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I had conversation regarding this issue and in Finland a cartridge manufacturer Lapua doesn't make a difference between 7.62x54mmR and 7.62x53mmR, and C.I.P. as an organization controlling safety of commercially manufactured ammunition doesn't give a damn about people using 54r in a 53r -marked firearm or vice versa, it's not illegal in Finland and every single weapon marked 53r is chambered so as to allow safe use of 54r, these C.I.P. -standards for both cartridges have been created after the WWII (when 54r was designed in 1880s/90s and 53r in 1920s/30s), and after that only one weapon has been designed for 53r, which is Tkiv 85 that currently can not be found outside the Finnish army, the Tkiv 85 employs parts such as recievers from old Mosin-Nagant -line of rifles and are often more than 100 years old. Ape89 (talk) 19:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The picture of the rifle is wrong: pictured is an older rifle Model 76, not the model 85

I would have changed the picture, but didn't know how. Here's a picture of the Tarkkuuskivääri 85 from the Finnish Defence Forces website http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/4a7e70804c69ed15b94cbfcf0085d067/DSC00829.JPG?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=4a7e70804c69ed15b94cbfcf0085d067 — Preceding unsigned comment added by TKIVS (talk • contribs) 08:13, 10 January 2013 (UTC)