Talk:7th Division (Winter War)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by DanCherek (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the Finnish 7th Division was formed in 1940 by renumbering another unit to make it appear to the Soviets that it had been replaced with fresh troops? Source: "The 10th Division at Taipale also needed a well- earned rest, but there were not enough reserves to rotate into its sector. All that could be done was to renumber it the 7th Division, in the hope that the enemy would think it was confronted with a new unit here." from: Chew, Allen F. (1971). The White Death: The Epic of the Soviet-Finnish Winter War. Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps. p. 140.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Canonization of Thomas Aquinas

Moved to mainspace by Dumelow (talk). Self-nominated at 12:35, 18 January 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Nice new article (t · c) buidhe 21:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the review buidhe and for adding the cats (can't believe I forgot them!) - Dumelow (talk) 22:10, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Promoting to Prep 3. DanCherek (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Overlap with Finnish 7th Division (Continuation War)

This article combines information about Winter War and Continuation War units of the same name. Two points w/r/t.

First, there's already a separate article Finnish 7th Division (Continuation War) which is about the Continuation War unit specifically. Either these articles should be merged (see below for why this might not be the right move), or this article should be limited to the Winter War unit.

Second, I'm not sure it's the right call to consider the Winter War 7th Div and the Continuation War 7th Div the same unit despite the shortness of the Interim Peace. Notably, all Continuation War divisions were renumbered using a lottery system. The Winter War 10th Division (which was renamed to 7th Div in January 1940) consisted of Infantry Regiments 28, 29 and 30, which were renumbered 19, 20 and 21 at the same time the division was renumbered. These units were called up from reservists of the Central Finland Military District (Finnish: Keski-Suomen sotilaslääni), from the areas of Keuruu, Jyväskylä and Niinisalo. The Continuation War 7th Div was called up by the Savonia (historical province)-Karelia Military District, and consisted of Infantry Regiments 9, 30 and 51 which were formed from reservists of North Savo and North Karelia in the areas of Ilomantsi, Kuopio, Kontiolahti, Kaltimo etc. These are not the same geographic regions.

Any thoughts how to best solve this? -Ljleppan (talk) 11:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Ljleppan, thanks for posting. I wasn't aware of the other 7th Division article when I started this one. I know next to nothing about the Soviet-Finnish wars (I read the bit about the name change being to deceive the Soviets and thought it was an interesting hook for an article) so I am happy to defer to your knowledge in this field. I've split out the Continuation War content to that article. I guess this title of this one should also be changed to refer to the Winter War. I am not sure that the other Finnish division articles are inline with the MOS though? I had always thought that the title should be the name of the unit only and the disambiguation within the brackets. Within the Finnish Army these units would have been "Xth Division", not "Finnish Xth Division" surely? - Dumelow (talk) 13:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Dumelow and sorry for the late reply. It's a hectic time at work. Thanks for the prompt changes, looking good on that front! Regarding the titles, I'm not sure how far back the Finnish unit title stuff goes (these predate me joining Wikipedia), but the basic problem is essentially that for most (but annoyingly not all) units, we need one disambiguator for the country and another for the war, which currently seems to follow "<country> Unit (<war>)" Disambiguation also appears to have been done pre-emptively, with e.g. Finnish 1st Division (Continuation War) even if Finnish 1st Division (Winter War) is currently a redlink. And in some cases, the same pattern has been continued even if there is no need for the war-disambiguator (e.g. Finnish V Corps (Continuation War)). I suppose for the latter case, "V Corps (Finland)" would be sufficient, but I'm less certain what the equivalent would be for the cases where we need both disambiguators. "Xth Division (Finnish Continuation War)" sounds stilted and "Xth Division (Finnish Continuation War unit)" is getting rather cumbersome. I'm not too well versed with the MOS regarding titles, so if you have a suggestion on how to improve this stuff, I'd be happy to hear it. -Ljleppan (talk) 15:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Ljleppan. Not sure to be honest, I am a fan of the part outside the brackets being what the unit was known as, but agree that the disambiguation also needs to be simple. The only similar thing I have seen is with Chinese units, eg. 3rd Division (1st Formation)(People's Republic of China) which is awful - Dumelow (talk) 15:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)