Talk:8 July 2024 Russian strikes on Ukraine

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: possibly WP:TOOSOON but won't be in a few hours anyways.

Fermiboson (talk) 11:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Children's hospital attack as the primary topic

Today's terrorist attack against a children's hospital is for sure the most notable of all strikes of this wave. Most headlines talk about it specifically rather than about the wave of strikes. Looking for this article in Google is quite hard due to its very vague title. I was wondering if we should move this article to a title referring to the children's hospital strike and mention the strikes in Kryvyi Rih, Dnipro and Pokrovsk in a section of their own only to mention they also happened on the same day. The article anyway does not have much information about them, and they are strikes that are, unfortunately, just like any other in this war: energy infrastructure or people's houses being destroyed. Super Ψ Dro 21:30, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree. I have moved it accordingly. I also chose not to include the actual name of the hospital (Okhmatdyt) as just saying "children's hospital" is more searchable. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 21:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree with the exclusion of Okhmatdyt from the title. Super Ψ Dro 21:53, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@WikiCleanerMan Yes the article mentions other strikes, but the children's hospital strike is clearly the most notable and covered of them, and most media outlets are covering that strike exclusively. I think my move and subsequent lead rewrite was correct under this and @Super Dromaeosaurus' reasoning — we can mention other strikes without changing the title here for searchability reasons; I agree that normally such move like the one you did would be correct but this feels like an IAR exception. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 22:51, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd say try a move discussion if anything. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:00, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd also prefer a RM. I would have moved the page myself if I thought one wasn't necessary. Super Ψ Dro 23:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay then. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 23:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I tried finding info on this topic on Wikipedia but nothing popped up. So I started Russian bombing of children hospitals in Ukraine, July 2024. Since this version is more developed my article should be merged here. However, the fact that is so hard to locate info on this air strike just illustrates how inadequate the current title here is. Volunteer Marek 23:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 8 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move to 8 July 2024 Russian strikes on Ukraine (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 23:47, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

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8 July 2024 Ukraine missile strikes → Kyiv children's hospital airstrike – The children's hospital strike is clearly the most notable and covered of these strikes, and most media outlets are covering that strike exclusively. We can mention the other strikes in the body without obstructing the searchability of the article by using a title very unlikely to be searched by someone who simply saw an article online. Most news articles have the hospital attack as the main headline and have the many other strikes as a sidenote. [1] [2] [3] [4] Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 23:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support See my comment above. Trying to locate this article by its current title is extremely difficult. Volunteer Marek 23:55, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support I think the part about the attack on other place should be removed,they are not well coveraged and doesn't fit with the hospital attack,especially since the "Reaction" section seem to only concern the attack on the hospital. AnonymousAsian2378 (talk) 01:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC) Editor not extended-confirmed. Mellk (talk) 09:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

  If we remove the other attacks, then the casualties dead drop from 41 to just 2.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 07:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Should attacks in other areas on the same day be included somewhere as in "the strike on the hospital took place on a shopping mall and other buildings" for example or be moved to the timeline article? Also, two hospitals were attacked. Not just one. Most of the article is not about the children's hospital and whatever is getting the most coverage doesn't necessarily mean it should be reflective of that despite the effect it has. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Shouldn't the hospital be named directly? Borgenland (talk) 04:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

  It "should" be named directly, but again for searchability it is far more likely someone would simply search "children's hospital" than know the name of the hospital and search that instead even if it is the "correct" title. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 05:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per WikiCleanerMan ―NachtReisender (talk) 05:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC) Editor not extended-confirmed. Mellk (talk) 09:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
• Comment Also, the phrase “Ukraine missile strikes” in current title is ambiguous and confusing. It’s not clear whether Ukraine (the subject) was struck or was doing the striking. Any other issues aside, this is just bad writing. I suggest this gets moved sooner rather than later. Volunteer Marek 05:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. 37-41 people were killed in these attacks, but only 2 of the dead were killed at the hospital[5]. This move is effectively asking us to rescope the article to a very narrow part of the attacks, which doesn't make sense, as RS have been treating the attacks all together. I suggest we create a WP:SPINOFF article on the children's hospital attack, which is notable in its own right, and leave this article as is. Also, RS seem to be labeling this as "Russian bombardment/attacks...that included children's hospital": "Russian missile attacks kill at least 41, hit children's hospital, Ukraine says", "Russia’s heaviest bombardment of Kyiv in 4 months kills at least 31 and hits a children’s hospital" etc. So RS are still calling this "Russian attacks", "Russian bombarment" etc.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 07:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I had started an article on just the hospitals being bombed ([6]) but then changed it to a redirect when I found this one (and this one was hard to find). I presume that if this doesn’t get renamed you’d be ok with making that one back into one dedicated to the hospital bombing itself? Volunteer Marek 16:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

When I started Ukrainian culture after it was decided to not to rename the Culture of Ukraine, my article was reverted back to redirect for "consensus" reasons.

So better start it now. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The article lists a wide variety of locations that the strikes took place in. If we limited it to only one, we would not be treating the topic with the same scope RS's have been. As others have said, we could also think about making a separate article for the hospital attack. Gödel2200 (talk) 11:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, per VR's answer about the number of killed people.--Mhorg (talk) 14:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Perhaps consider 8 July 2024 Russian attack on Ukraine.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose and agree with VR's spinoff proposal. JoseJan89 (talk) 17:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, support 8 July 2024 Russian attack on Ukraine

Kowal2701 (talk) 18:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose given a quarter of the death toll was in Kryvyi Rih and that while the children's hospital was by far the most viral part of the attack, it wasn't the only part. I support renaming it to 8 July 2024 Russian attack on Ukraine per VR. Jebiguess (talk) 21:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. Kyiv children's hospital airstrike can be a sub-page of this page - as one of several significant airstrikes which were perpetrated by Russian forces during this day. No doubts, Kyiv children's hospital airstrike was significant enough to deserve a separate page. My very best wishes (talk) 22:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: only a minor part of the casualties was in the children's hospital. Other locations are significant. Sneeuwschaap (talk) 22:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• Can we please at least get rid of the “Ukraine missile strike” part? It’s just horrible writing. It makes it sound like it was Ukraine that struck something with missiles. This is like English 101. Come on people. Volunteer Marek 07:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, "8 July 2024 Russian missile strikes on Ukraine" would be more adapted in my opinion. BilletsMauves^€500 15:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: the Okhmatdyt hospital was only one of the places that got struck on that day. Support renaming the article to 8 July 2024 Russian strikes on Ukraine, consistent with 22 March 2024 Russian strikes on Ukraine, 2 January 2024 Russian strikes on Ukraine, etc. BilletsMauves^€500 16:14, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. While the attack on the children's hospital is deplorable, it was not the only place that was attacked that day; hell, only two of the more than 40 deaths occurred there, and even within Kyiv many more people died elsewhere. Per what others have said already, support rename to 8 July 2024 Russian attack on Ukraine or 8 July 2024 Russian strikes on Ukraine. Procyon117 (talk) 18:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Not only the children's hospital was hit in the attack that day. There are reports that the Artem machine building plant was also hit. The official announcement of the Ukrainian air force is that 30 of its 38 missiles were destroyed. It doesn't make sense to reduce the whole day's attack to just hitting the hospital. Mahfuzat (talk) 19:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Editor is not extended-confirmed. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Why not make a separated article? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Because there's not enough notability for there to be two articles; if we're not going to have the children's hospital strikes as the title and primary topic of the article (which we clearly aren't from what people have said) then the proposed title is fine just being a redirect here as there's no reason to have, nor do I think we should have, separate articles as no news org was reporting on these strikes as separate events — they were giving more coverage to the children's hospital strike, yes, but that means (in my view) that it should be the primary topic of the article, not be separate from the general strikes. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 21:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Well hospital strike is definitely notable, judging even by this article sources titles. But if it would be a hospital strike article, where to put info on different places strikes that day then? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the hospital strike is very notable, and so are the other strikes, and that's why we have an article on them; but there is not notability for there to be separate articles. I'm fine with this article being at the proposed 8 July 2024 Russian strikes on Ukraine, which is where all the strikes four days ago would be described, I just think a title like that somewhat obstructs searchability, as Marek has said. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 22:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

"there is not notability for there to be separate article" (about Kyiv children's hospital airstrike). Well, I think actually there is. It just should be well written. There are many events related to this, for example, [7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15]. Nothing in this discussion prevents from creating such sub-page. I will look later and possibly do it. If anyone disagree, they may nominate it for AfD. My very best wishes (talk) 03:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Preparator “Russia” ?

Is there evidence that it was a russian strike ?

Sources are just exchanging allegations, it makes no sense to take urkain’s allegations for granted over russian allegations, per WP:NPOV

there is no evidence in general of whether it was ukrainian failed rocket or a Russian rocket. Chafique (talk) 11:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Super Ψ Dro 11:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

What? Reliable news sources are reporting it was a russian missile—blindlynx 13:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Bellingcat says its a Russian attack. Even crackpot Dmitry Rogozin agrees. Jebiguess (talk) 21:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

As of July 10, there is robust evidence demonstrating that the Ohmatdyt hospital was directly hit by a Kh-101 missile. (1) This is corroborated by an independent analysis of the video footage of the strike, which was filmed from a neighbouring building and was circulated widely on social media on the same day. (2) UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine that visited the site confirmed it was a direct hit 'with high likelihood'. These two pieces of evidence warrant firmer language on the cause of the strike. Hidden-markov (talk) 10:55, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Artem plant

Very few sources discuss the attack on Artem plant. A few mention it so we can also mention it. However User:Mohrg was trying to put the attack on hospital and the plant together [16] [17] which suggests the two were linked (this is not in source, it’s just WP:SYNTH). Additionally all sources that are covering these strikes focus on the attack on hospital, for obvious reasons. But the attempt to put the attack on Artem plant and hospital together dilutes the importance the latter and kind of “tucks it away” where won’t be as prominent and visible. This issue is amplified by the current title of the article which fails to mention the hospital (again by far the main focus of all coverage). Putting the Artem plant strikes (which again, are barely mentioned by sources) above the hospital strike (which is mentioned by all sources) is more of the same.

I’m also not clear why Mhorg is removing the fact that Russia claimed it was Ukrainian defense that hit the hospital as well as the fact that there is pretty clear footage of Russian missile striking the hospital [18]. Volunteer Marek 18:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I very much agree that the hospital's subsection should be above the military plant's. Though because the latter was very short I've merged it into the "Other strikes" subsection. It's only four short sentences, I don't see why it would warrant its own subsection. I don't think too strongly of the plant not having its own subsection, but for sure the hospital's should be above, as it is far more notable. Super Ψ Dro 12:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 July 2024

The X platform, formerly known as Twitter and owned by American billionaire Elon Musk, blocked Bellingcat's investigation into the Russian attack on the Okhmatdyt children's hospital in Kyiv, which involved the use of a Kh-101 missile. Some users encounter a warning that the link may be dangerous when attempting to access it. Kado Gualberto (talk) 01:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 14:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Misleading main image

It looks as if 48 people died in the hospital, when in fact 2 died. Either we add in the description that 2 died, or it is better to use another image to better represent the series of missile attacks of the day. Mhorg (talk) 10:11, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

The targeting of the children's hospital is the most notable event of this wave of strikes. However, other strikes were more deadly. This is all explained in the infobox, which specifies the strikes didn't happen only in Kyiv. I am against changing the image. Super Ψ Dro 11:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it is still misleading. Let's add in the description that two people died for now.Mhorg (talk) 12:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)