Talk:9th Panzerlehr Brigade (Bundeswehr)

Article Tagged

I've tagged the article because the Infobox is in Germany (see the source code). Waiting on someone to translate it to English and use the Military Unit for the English Wikipedia. Then I will assess the article. Adamdaley (talk) 02:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

The infobox code does not need translating for an assessment to be made, as the infobox displays in English. It is quite common for infoboxes to be adapted from de.wiki to speed up translation of articles, as translators don't have to spend hours converting the repetitive infobox data, but can get on with where they add most value i.e. translating article text. The infoboxes are perfectly readable and can be substituted by anyone in slower time. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:11, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Article errors

As User:Peacemaker67 and User:Bermicourt reverted without reading, the article now says the units name is all of the following:

• 9th Armoured Demonstration Brigade
• 9th Tank Instruction Brigade
• 9th Panzerlehrbrigade

Reverting blindly without reading existing discussion threads and not reading what edits have been made, is the opposite of good faith collaboration. User:Peacemaker67 and User:Bermicourt - at least take the time to give the unit a coherent name in the article. noclador (talk) 22:36, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Use the article title. It wasn't a blind revert, just use the article title instead of weird partial translations. If you think it should have a different title, then institute an RM, as I suggested. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:40, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't want to move the page. I want the unit to have the same name in all articles. As it is now we have Panzer, Tank, Armored, Armoured for German brigades with no plan what to actually use. I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Army structures, but with no movement. As it is now the possible names for this unit are:

1. 9th Panzerlehrbrigade
2. 9th Panzer Demonstration Brigade
3. 9th Armoured Demonstration Brigade
4. 9th Tank Demonstration Brigade
5. 9th Panzer Instruction Brigade
6. 9th Armoured Instruction Brigade
7. 9th Tank Instruction Brigade

As User:Bermicourt insists we should not translate "Panzer" the only possible option would be 9th Panzer Demonstration Brigade, but you say it should be 9th Armoured Demonstration Brigade... now you say to use the "article title", which is Panzerlehrbrigade 9, making it three possible names... and no one of us has a source for any of these names. To bring it in line with the other German brigades it should be 9th Panzer Demonstration Brigade... but then one of you would complain again, so do me a favour and edit the correct name into the article, because if you can't make up your mind, which name you want, I am not gonna get into editing this article and being reverted ad nauseam. noclador (talk) 22:58, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

FYI

German Army brigade articles as of now - only one is not like the others, but none of them uses "Armoured":

• 3rd Panzer Brigade (Bundeswehr)
• Panzerlehrbrigade 9
• 21st Panzer Brigade (Bundeswehr)
• 1st Panzergrenadier Brigade (Bundeswehr)
• 37th Panzergrenadier Brigade (Bundeswehr)
• 41st Panzergrenadier Brigade (Bundeswehr)
• 1st Airmobile Brigade (Bundeswehr)
• 26th Airborne Brigade (Bundeswehr)
• 31st Airborne Brigade (Bundeswehr)

Should Panzer and Panzergrenadier be never translated? noclador (talk) 23:04, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Correct re: the translations. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:30, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Divisions:

• 1st Panzer Division (Bundeswehr)
• 3rd Panzer Division (Bundeswehr)
• 5th Panzer Division (Bundeswehr)
• 7th Panzer Division (Bundeswehr)
• 10th Panzer Division (Bundeswehr)
• 12th Panzer Division (Bundeswehr)
• 2nd Panzergrenadier Division (Bundeswehr)
• 4th Panzergrenadier Division (Bundeswehr)
• 6th Panzergrenadier Division (Bundeswehr)
• 11th Panzergrenadier Division (Bundeswehr)
• 13th Panzergrenadier Division (Bundeswehr)
• 14th Panzergrenadier Division (Bundeswehr)

Proposal: added: "6. The names of specialities, for whom an article exists will not be translated. Examples: Alpini, Bersaglieri, Jäger, Lagunari, Panzer, Panzergrenadier, Paracadutisti, Spahis, Tirailleur, etc." to the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Style guide proposal. If that is approved I will change the Panzerlehrbrigade 9 name in English to: 9th Panzer Demonstration Brigade (Bundeswehr). noclador (talk) 23:18, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I would have thought that, given Lehr isn't easily translated into English, and can mean a range of things including demonstration, instruction, teaching, lecture and school for starters, we would be far better retaining it at Lehr, just like in the WWII Panzer Lehr Division article, thus either 9th Panzer Lehr Brigade (Bundeswehr) or 9th Panzerlehr Brigade (Bundeswehr). Given the original German runs the names together, I would prefer the latter. Interesting that US Armor magazine, one of the few sources for this unit in English that I could quickly locate on Google Books, actually uses Panzerlehrbrigade 9. Let's see what others think then perhaps put it to an RM? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:42, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

My formation, 7th Armoured Brigade, was twinned with this formation when it was in Germany and we always called it by its German name - 9th Panzerlehrbrigade - but if you want the equivalent English translation, it's 9th Armoured Demonstration Brigade which is the opposite number to our demonstration battalion and "demonstration" is one of their key roles - they're always putting on demos for the military and others in order to demonstrate how armoured formations work. If you want an authoritative name, you need to go to NATO sources. Bermicourt (talk) 07:01, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I just went to nato.int and did a search for the various terms we have listed above, the only results I get back are for: "9th Panzerlehrbrigade" - i.e. from 01 Jan. 2019, or 17 Mar. 2020. So we might have to move it to 9th Panzerlehr Brigade (Bundeswehr). noclador (talk) 10:02, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Let's just go with that, 9th Panzerlehr Brigade (Bundeswehr). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:08, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

NATO does have English equivalents for the names of different national units; I just don't have access to those sources currently. But someone will. Bermicourt (talk) 12:41, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Here you go: "9th Armoured Demonstration Brigade". The source is Paul Chrystal's British Army of the Rhine, but there are more online. Chrystal's book is clearly a source of other English language unit titles. Notice, for example, that we don't usually translate Panzergrenadier. Bermicourt (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Please User:Peacemaker67 and User:Bermicourt agree on a name for the unit to use in all articles. My preference would be 9th Panzerlehr Brigade (Bundeswehr), as it is in line with all other German Army brigades and divisions. Once we have an agreement I will edit the agreed name into the various articles. Until then I am working on Structure of the Swiss Armed Forces (I am off to bed now - Air Force, Education Command, Armed Forces Command Support Organisation and Armed Forces Logistics Organisation I will to tomorrow). Best regards, noclador (talk) 23:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I've said my piece. I think we should go with 9th Panzerlehr Brigade (Bundeswehr), translating Panzerlehr isn't desirable or necessary, as it is better known as that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Support 9th Panzerlehr Brigade (Bundeswehr). Buckshot06 (talk) 02:19, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I'd go with the sources, not with a title we've made up. The German name is clear - 9th Panzerlehrbrigade. The English name used in sources appears to be 9th Armoured Demonstration Brigade. Neither needs disambiguation. Bermicourt (talk) 08:06, 7 May 2020 (UTC)