Talk:A8 (Croatia)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:A8 (Croatia)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Starstriker7 (talk · contribs) 19:41, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I'll do this review. --Starstriker7^(Talk) 19:41, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if I'll be able to approach this article in a timely manner. I apologize.

I am going to try to see if someone else can take on this review. --Starstriker7^(Talk) 19:59, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

OK I will take on the review. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:06, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations: none found.

Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   The road terminates at the Kanfanar interchange with the A9 motorway, as the two form the Istrian Y road system. Clumsy phrasing, implies that the reason it terminates at the interchange is because "the two" (whatever they are) form a road system. Makes no sense whatsoever.

   The motorway's national significance is reflected in its positive economic impact on the cities and towns it connects, as well as its importance to tourism in Croatia. The importance of the motorway for tourism is particularly high during summer tourist seasons, when traffic volume increases by about 50 percent. Rephrase to avoid constant repetition of "tourism".

   Expansion of the route to the motorway standards including six lanes and grade separation of all its interchanges is scheduled by 2015,; All intersections of the expressway are grade separated, except for a single intersection currently regulated by traffic lights, but this is planned to be bypassed eventually by a new route in the area. Poorly expressed, please rephrase.

   As the motorway is tolled Clumsy, toll is a noun, not a verb.

   The A8/A9 system of the Istrian Y have an integrated toll system in place. Confusion : plural or singular?

   The route is economically important to Croatia, especially for tourism and as a transit transport route. The road carries significant transit and tourist traffic route as it represents the largest-capacity road link between Istria and Kvarner Gulf region, and the nation's capital, Zagreb. Repetition.

   OK, it is clear that this is nopt written by someone with a command of good plain English. Above are some examples from the beginning of the article, but I see similar elementary mistakes strewn throughout. Please find a competent copy-editor to thoroughly copy-edit the whole article, line by line. Articles should not be nominated for GAN in such a shoddy state.

   Complies with key MoS elements, except for the lead which does not fully summarise the article, see WP:LEAD; examples of missing information include traffic volumes, revenues.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   I am going to have to assume good faith for the majority of references which are in Croatian.

   We need page numbers for PDFs.

   ref #29[1] does not support the statement - this type of online directory is not a reliable source.

   Please demonstrate where refs #3, 4, 5 support the statement The road carries significant transit and tourist traffic route as it represents the largest-capacity road link between Istria and Kvarner Gulf region, and the nation's capital, Zagreb.

   A number of references are identical and should be combined.

   ref #27[2] lists the types of service areas on Croatian motorways - it does not specifically give the grades of the cited service areas.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   Overall the ciattaions are poorly applied.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Although a outline map of Croatia and the road is provided in the infobox, the main problem I find is that there is little or no context. many locations are listed but there is little or no indication of where these are so it is hard to gain any overall picture of the road from the article. There is also contradictory information, e.g.: As the motorway is tolled using a ticket system, each exit includes a toll plaza. and The motorway is currently toll free, with an exception of the Učka Tunnel and the Kanfanar-Rogovići

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   NPOV ok

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   stable

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   I am not sure what the image File:4-lane motorway on Istrian Y.jpg or the caption: The Istrian Y consists of the A9 and the A8 motorways add to the article, neither image nor caption actually provide any encyclopaedic content. The same could be said about the other images.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   This article is not ready for GA status. Referencing is rather inconsistent, prose is extremely poor and coverage is somewhat incomplete. Please get what you have thoroughly copy-edited by someone with a good command of plain English, then take to peer review before considering renomination. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:04, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Started copyedit

Hello! Lfstevens got occupied with the May copyedit drive, so I said I'd take over on copyediting this one. Allens (talk | contribs) 10:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for volunteering your time and effort. I am confident your input will be of huge benefit for the article.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Quite welcome, and thank you! Allens (talk | contribs) 20:39, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Copyediting and clarifications

Toll collection system is in place all along the route between Kanfanar and tunnel Učka, but everything east of Rogovići (except tunnel Učka) is toll-free. For instance, if you were to drive from Kanfanar to Rogovići you would be issued a toll ticket at Kanfanar toll station, which would be collected at Rogovići exit and you would pay 8.00 kuna for the privilege (assuming you were driving a passenger car). If you were to proceed further down to, say Cerovlje, the ticket would be collected at Cerovlje exit instead but it would still cost you 8.00 kuna. Cutting the trip length short at Žminj (ahead of Rogovići) would reduce cost to 3.00 kuna, but travelling full length of the motorway would raise the bill to 36.00 kuna. Now the funny part: if you were to enter the motorway at Rogovići and exit at Vranja (applies to any other entrance/exit combination in between those two) you would be issued the ticket at Rogovići, the ticket would be collected at Vranja and you would be waved off to move along as charges do not apply to that part of the road.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I... see. They collect the ticket to prevent someone from reusing it along a tolled portion or something like that? Allens (talk | contribs) 00:58, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The tickets are collected from all drivers regardless if they're paying for use of the road or not. Those who pay are (naturally) given a receipt. It would be possible to reuse toll tickets (during the same 24 hours), so collecting them makes sense in that respect too.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

As a further twist, Veprinac, Opatija and Matulji exits do not contain any toll plazas (there is a mainline toll plaza ahead of tunnel Učka in either direction of the traffic) - that section is not planned to have toll charged.--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Indeed the public loan was made and bonds were issued - that was normal practice in Yugoslavia regardless of communist rule. Such loans and bonds were used to finance large construction works, this is an example of such a bond for loan used to finance reconstruction of Skopje after 1963 earthquake. Source #16 specifically mentions the loan, but I'll see if I can find more details on the bonds in other sources.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:39, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised. Weird... then again, the Chinese government has state-run banks making loans to state-owned enterprises. Allens (talk | contribs) 00:58, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Veprinac is a separate settlement (see p.109) within territory administered by the city of Opatija located slightly inland. I am not that familiar with contents of Opatija article, yet motorway exits in Croatia are named by legislation, and the one just to the east of Učka Tunnel is officially called Veprinac.--Tomobe03 (talk) 00:12, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Got it. Allens (talk | contribs) 00:58, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The expressway referred to here is a controlled-access highway as it had no access to adjacent property or roads except through grade separated intersections (the only at-grade intersection is the Opatija exit, controlled by traffic lights), the road is reserved for specific types of transport (no bicycles, pedestrians etc.) and width/alignment/plan of the road is designed for 130kph+ speeds (although in practice the speed limit is lower because of the two-lane design - when an additional carriageway is completed, e.g. Kanfanar-Rogovići, the speed limit is increased to 130kph or so with no modification of the existing carriageway. In essence, Croatian expressways lack the second carriageway (and central reservation) to become regular motorways - except for the Opatija exit at the A8. I suspect that the exit was executed at-grade because the A8 is planned to be built along a new route between Učka Tunnel and A7 north of Rijeka and the present Veprinac-Opatija-Matulji appears to be aimed at serving Opatija riviera - but at this point I have no direct source for this last claim.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I see; thanks! I've tried to clarify matters. Allens (talk | contribs) 00:58, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

BTW, if you've got citeable sources on the speed limits, that would be nice for the article. Also, do the variable-message signs/control system for the traffic monitoring/guidance system include variable speed limits? Allens (talk | contribs) 01:03, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately no, I have no citeable sources on those. The variable traffic signs include variable speed limits - the limits are normally lowered during periods of fog or particularly strong wind (or snow and ice on the road, although that is very rare on this particular road given its location).--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:28, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

File:Autocesta A1 kod Trogira.jpg is an example of a variable traffic sign - admittedly that one is found on the A1 motorway, and there are simpler designs posted on the side of the road instead of gantries.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The measuring and control systems employed vary depending on stretch of motorway in question - they normally include surveillance cameras to monitor traffic congestion, air temperature and weather conditions, traffic rule violations, look for accidents etc, but also more elaborate systems employed in tunnels (speed control radar, fire detection etc) and viaducts/bridges (anemometer). The information gathered that way (and from maintenance vehicles patrolling roads) is used to modify speed limits or post other warnings/restrictions using variable traffic signs, reported to Croatian Automobile Club (a part of it) for driver information radio and TV broadcasts as well as website content (including some camera feeds), or used to alert road maintenance crews (in case of accidents, snow, ice etc.) or emergency services.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:48, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I've noted the monitoring (of both traffic and weather) and variable speed limit signs - I took a look at the English text of the Croatian Motorways brochure and found additional info on pages 134-135. Allens (talk | contribs) 17:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

The "integrated toll system" refers to the fact that it is possible to switch between the two (A8 and A9) motorways with no toll barrier in between - entering through an A8 toll barrier and exiting through an A9 plaza. I suspect the phrase came off wrong in some way, but I did not think of another one. Similar arrangements are in place for A3/A5, and A1/A6, so the thing is not unique.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:56, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Understand - I've tried to clarify this. Allens (talk | contribs) 17:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

The emergency lanes are absent from substantial parts of the route (there are occasional emergency lay-bys though) because the initial construction stage, i.e. expressway, does not necessarily include one as a cost-saving measure. As the expressway is upgraded to motorway standards through addition of the second carriageway, the original pavement structure is often left as-is to be widened later to accommodate an emergency lane. For instance, the A3 motorway extending from Zagreb east to border of Serbia was originally built as a regular road, onto which the second carriageway was added. The original road was resurfaced and the emergency lane added, but a significant proportion of culverts and bridges still have no emergency lane - it is added as each structure is replaced during maintenance. This situation exists since 1980s, in completely flat terrain, so yes, that's cost-saving measure.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I've said "as yet" with regard to the emergency lanes. Allens (talk | contribs) 21:18, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Traffic counting site numbers are site identification not corresponding to kilometers, the first two digits represent Hrvatske ceste map grid square number (see p.59) and the last two digits represent counting site serial number within each of the grid squares.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:43, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Got it - I've put in a link; a translation of the title would be nice. Also, any data on large vehicle traffic? This could be either via the traffic counting sites or, more likely, via toll ticket numbers, since these vary depending on the vehicle size. I'm interested in fleshing out the non-tourism economic importance of the road. Allens (talk | contribs) 21:18, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

As far as translation is concerned, refs 27 and 31 are the same thing, one in English the other in Croatian - I'll replace the latter with the former and that should be it. As far as non-tourist traffic is concerned, Croatian tourism is highly seasonal, i.e. difference between AADT and ASDT is largely consequence of tourist traffic (which is nearly entirely absent outside summer season). Unfortunately no detailed data is published by Hrvatske ceste or BINA Istra even though the toll tickets are different for five types of vehicles.--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:28, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

As far as the new route east of Veprinac (to Jušići on the A7, instead of Matulji where A8 and A7 currently meet) is concerned - I cannot find a source defining exactly when the proposal was made. Nonetheless, reference 23 mentions the proposed route, along with a map (p.38). The same source also says that this is still in planning stages, hence no funding was made available.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:09, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding BINA-ISTRA profit - for the moment I only found a report that they generated a loss of 331,000 kuna (44,000 Euro) in Jan-Sep 2007, but nothing more recent yet. On the other hand I found this piece of news that 165 million kuna (22 million Euro) government subsidy is earmarked for them in 2012. I think I remember that the subsidy pertains to lost revenue on expressway sections where no toll is charged (contrary to concession contract, on request of the government) - but I have to check that out further, I may be wrong... and I'll try to look up a more recent income statement or news report on profit or loss.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:09, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Indeed the subsidy is compensation for non-payment of tolls along two-lane sections, pursuant to amendments to the concession contract made in 1999, as confirmed by BINA-ISTRA.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:19, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Further regarding the subsidy: The cited article does not elaborate much, but it says only that sum expected to be paid until 2027 is the given amount - the sums have so far apparently been paid in each year since the contract amendment. I cannot really say if the author simply calculated average annual payment so far and multiplied it by 17 or otherwise.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:51, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Understand... Allens (talk | contribs) 21:18, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Exit numbers are defined by legislation. When an additional exit is designed, it is assigned a new (following) number provided it is located at the end of the motorway. If it is built in between existing exits, it is assigned the same number as the preceding exit, with a lowercase letter "a". For instance, an additional exit between exits 8 and 9 is 8a. If another exit were built in the same motorway section (between exits 8 and 9), it would be designated 8b and so forth. A similar situation exists along the A3.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:11, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah! In the US, typically the mile number of the exit is the exit number (the only exceptions I know of are a few toll roads such as the New Jersey Turnpike, which I believe add letters as with the Croatian system to newer exits - capital ones, though), but if more than one exit is within 1 mile (typically only happening in a city), they are lettered (with capital letters after the mile number). Allens (talk | contribs) 21:18, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Right, these numbers merely mark sequence of the exits.--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:29, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding what settlements/road numbers are actually signposted along motorways: Those markings are generally very extensive along Croatian motorways. I cannot honestly say that each one of those is positively signposted (at least until the next time I drive there) but the directional signage along the motorways consists of gantry signs like this normally listing up to three destinations. That type of sign is preceded by two additional roadside signs, one depicting pretty much the same thing, and another listing as many as ten destinations served by a specific exit (as well as an additional sign showing exit name and number). Road numbers are always shown on more recent signs (posted within past three years or so), so chances are A8 carries those as the motorway upgrade would require change from blue background signs to green background ones. Unfortunately, short of driving there and taking photos myself I have no way to back this up right now.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:15, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Is it reasonably certain that at least the cities/towns that the interchange is named after would be listed? Allens (talk | contribs) 23:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

That is absolutely certain. It is fairly certain that all of those would be marked.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:45, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, a map could serve as a source for what's served by each exit, although not for what's signposted.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:49, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Markings "istok" (east) or "zapad" (west) are normally used throughout Croatian motorway system for multiple exits serving the same city - the same situation exists near Zagreb and Slavonski Brod on the A3.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:17, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I see; good idea, BTW. (The best way to interpret this in English would be to call them "eastern [Zagreb/whatever]" or "western [Zagreb/whatever]".) I hope I didn't delete any such indications by accident! Allens (talk | contribs) 18:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Učka Tunnel chainage marks the center of the tunnel. This appears to be an alternative to marking the of the beginning and the end of tunnels, bridges and viaducts acceptable to WP:HWY.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:19, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the toll plazas are effectively marking the beginning and end of the tunnel... but specifically noting the tunnel in the table is also a good thing. Allens (talk | contribs) 23:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

There are two toll plazas, one at each end of the tunnel, charging toll to traffic entering the tunnel - this arrangement is designed to avoid queues forming inside the tunnel, so interpretations in the RJL are correct.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:21, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, good... Allens (talk | contribs) 23:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the toll plaza east of the tunnel is adjacent to Učka Tunnel portal, but the western toll plaza is a bit further away. The tunnel seen in this image behind the western portal is 190m long "Zrinšćak 1". Beyond that tunnel, there is a 220m long section of open road, then 40m long (or short) "Zrinšćak 2" tunnel (seen here), followed by another 90m of open road before the route reaches Učka Tunnel. Tunnels that short are not included in the RJL normally, but given the fact that the whole set is 500-600m long (all figures approximate), it is still fair to say that the western toll plaza marks the end of the Učka Tunnel.--Tomobe03 (talk) 19:15, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

At the Kanfanar interchange, vehicles leaving the A8 may switch to A9 or default to D303. Ž5077 is accessed via a short stretch of D303 actually connecting to the interchange. The D303 article situation is a bit simplified. According to Tele Atlas data the exits are marked as follows -- A9 southbound: Pula; A9 northbound: Umag/Poreč; D303: Rovinj/Kanfanar--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:02, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

We should probably put in the google maps URL as a reference - see {{Google maps}}. Allens (talk | contribs) 18:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

At Žminj IC, [http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=872592&page=282 signs] indicate exit for (1) Labin, Barban and Žminj; (2) Sveti Petar u Šumi and Svetvinčenat - that's what can be seen on photos of two traffic signs ahead of the exit - there may be more, but this is the verifiable minimum. Unfortunately, the photo was taken before the motorway upgrade though (blue sign).--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:10, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

[http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=872592&page=325 Here] are some photos taken before the Rogovići-Kanfanar motorway section opened - there's a good shot of the last (gantry) sign indicating Ž5190 road number.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:43, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Rogovići is a part of Pazin, i.e. D48 leads northwards to there (terminus of the route is in the interchange). Ž5190 also terminates in the interchange, but leads south to Žminj, Svetvinčenat and Vodnjan (not to Pazin), where it connects to the D21. (source for this is in the article as ref #7)--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:54, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

According to Tele Atlas data, at Matulji interchange, southbound A7 is signposted as Rijeka/Zagreb/Split and northbound A7 is signposted as Ljubljana/Trieste.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:16, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

D48 serves as the western approach to Pazin, while Ž5190 runs from the interchange to the opposite direction, towards Žminj and Vodnjan, parallel to the motorway.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:48, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Since D64 does not have a direct contact with the motorway, i believe it is not signposted on the motorway itself.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've tried to incorporate these into the table. I'm not sure exactly how to reference either the photos (forums are not generally citable sources, but I can see an exception for photographs) or the Tele Atlas data (how're you accessing that?). Allens (talk | contribs) 18:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, short of Tele Atlas offline software, the same thing is used for Google maps of Croatia - in this map take a look at the bottom right corner of the map for info on data provider.--Tomobe03 (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Motorway rest area cafés, unlike restaurants, do not serve meals, one may buy sandwiches or snacks normally sold in stores.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:39, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I see. "Snack shop" (including the link) might be a better phrase to use. (You may find the Café article interesting in terms of the diversity of meanings the word has in English...) Allens (talk | contribs) 18:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, right. The "café" here would sell snacks/sandwiches beside all sorts of beverages, and it would have indoor and outdoor seating areas tended by waiters.--Tomobe03 (talk) 19:03, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding map content used as sourcing, the same issue came up in case of Ontario Highway 96 DYK nomination when use of such sources was determined as acceptable per Wikipedia:Using maps and similar sources in wikipedia articles. Tele Atlas provides map information for Google maps.--Tomobe03 (talk) 18:47, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Excellent. Then the only question is how to cite it. Allens (talk | contribs) 18:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Current ref #8 is precisely such a cite.--Tomobe03 (talk) 19:04, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Since D66 does not have a direct contact with the motorway, i also believe it is not signposted on the motorway itself. I think I remember seeing Buzet signposted at the Lupoglav exit - and I would expect it to be signposted there since it is the most significant settlement served by the exit - but I cannot find a photo of any signposting at the exit.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

While it is hard for me to define where hilly terrain ends and mountainous terrain begins, the route around Pazin runs at elevations of about 300 metres asl, with the highest surrounding areas of 400 m asl, so I would say that does not qualify as mountainous terrain. Long bridges tend to be needed there to cross karst terrain features such as ponors and landforms created by rivers flowing across karst quickly eroding the surface (such as in case of Lim (Croatia)).--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:49, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Got it. I've located a couple of references about the karst terrain, and am now describing it as "rough karst terrain" instead of "hilly terrain" - the latter was directly from the (rather badly translated; they should hire you as a translator!) Hrvatske autoceste "Croatian Motorways" book. Allens (talk | contribs) 21:50, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Great suggestion, hope they can appreciate a not-so-subtle hint :) --Tomobe03 (talk) 14:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course, Učka clearly qualifies as a mountain, but the route crosses 400 m asl isohypse less than 4 km west of the Tunnel. The route on the eastern slope of Učka, around Veprinac might well qualify as mountainous, but in terms of speed restrictions, the two-lane configuration in effect does not permit speed limits above 100 km/h, and the sections now executed as four-lane road are definitely not mountainous.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:56, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Got it. Do you happen to have an easily-accessible reference about the portion of the route around Učka? I'd like to note that as around the Veprinac exit. I'd also like to note the A8 crossing the Raša, apparently near Lupoglav. Allens ::(talk | contribs) 21:50, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll look it up today. Raša rises near Pićan and flows east to Plomin where it empties into the sea. It is quite short and does not reach to the A8, let alone as far north as Lupoglav. If you saw that line crossing the A8 just east of the Lupoglav interchange, that's a railroad.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:41, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Huh. I wonder what the "Croatian Motorways" thing on page 378 is meaning by "Lupoglav-Raša", then. Allens (talk | contribs) 14:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

That is a brilliant translation: The Croatian text says "380 m long flyover spanning Lupoglav - Raša railway line"... I guess someone could not come up with the word "railroad".--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:56, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the route between Učka Tunnel and Matulji interchange (and the A7), current ref #25 mentions 150 m Anđeli viaduct. The viaduct is located here. The source specifies that the section between Matulji and Lupoglav has 7.6m wide pavement and 100km/h design speed. West of the Tunnel Učka, the section contains Vela Draga and Zrinšćak viaducts (126m and 200m long respectively, located between Zrinšćak 1 and Zrinšćak 2 and Učka Tunnels. The two Zrinšćak tunnels are 200m (1) and 45m long (2) respectively (the 2nd figure is not in the source, but in the Polish video). The Lupoglav-Raša railway crossing viaduct is 380m long. Lupoglav-Cerovlje section contains 6 viaducts, 1320m long combined, Mrzlići Viaduct being the longest among those (487m). The next section of the A8 (going west) - to Rogovići - contains 3 viaducts, 949m long combined, Drazej Viaduct being the longest among those (444m). A8 west of Rogovići was designed as a single unit extending to Vodnjan (now reached along A9 south towards Pula), so statistics on that section are meaningless. Design speed for the section is specified to 100km/h, although that design predates current motorway there (minor route alterations were performed) so that's not necessarily true today. Design speeds are not specified for Lupoglav-Cerovlje and Cerovlje-Rogovići sections.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

This source (News portal maintained by Croatian subsidiary of the Raiffeisen Zentralbank - actual article was originally published in Novi list daily newspaper) specifies plan to build an additional interchange on the route (named Anđeli), located between Veprinac and Opatija exits.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Major junctions - definition/source?

What's the definition or source for the "major junctions" in the Infobox? Thanks! Allens (talk | contribs) 09:49, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Those are normally major roads intersecting the route. Those would definitely be other motorways, and I'd normally include state roads (D-something), although I don't think it there's any point in replicating RJL completely. In this case, D44 was selected as it serves as a link to northern Istria (Buzet) as a city not adjacent to the motorway, and D8 as a probably most significant state road in Croatia, carrying a sizable volume of traffic. Arguably, D303 could be included as well here. Definition/sourcing of the list selection would largely depend on the prose in the article itself and sourcing present there - if that establishes, say D8 as "major", that would probably be it.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Page 387 in the "Hrvatske autoceste (December 2007). Croatian Motorways" reference may be a source on this; it appears to indicate D44 and D48, which is weird from what you're saying. They may not be showing D8 because it runs along the motorways. Allens (talk | contribs) 10:57, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

From the point of view of motorway operators, a state road like D8, running parallel to the A7 and southern part of A1 is a competing route whose traffic they wish to take over... :) Seriously though, hard to say, those are subjective at best. One possible objective way of looking at the issue would be comparing AADT of the connecting roads at nearby counting sites (adjacent to the A8 if possible, or as close to the route at the minimum):

• D8: 7434 vehicles per day
• D500: 1726 vehicles per day
• D44: 3748 vehicles per day
• D48: 4119 vehicles per day
• D303: 7926 vehicles per day

The problem with the D48 is that the counting site reporting the number is closer to the A9 than A8, and the traffic leaving/entering the A8 via the D48 largely has origin or destination in Pazin itself. The D303 situation is also somewhat complicated because it is not really clear what portion of its AADT volume is generated by the A8 and which portion is attributable to the A9.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:27, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

A guy buys a camera and has a great idea, if one asks wiki editors trying to piece together A8 route article... Apparently, people tape and post at youtube all sorts of things, and one of them drove from Bosiljevo interchange at the northern terminus of the A6 (Croatia) to Rijeka, and then along the A7 to Matulji interchange, kindly turning to Učka Tunnel, proceeding down entire A8 to Kanfanar and then to Pula via the A9. The only missing piece is inside the Učka Tunnel and the western Učka toll plaza (that's between the two videos), but still... The videos are played back quite faster than in real time, but I could still pause them and make out what's signposted! The videos are here and here, but all those I could interpret are in the second one. I could not read all signposts at all the exits, but this is some sort of progress. The videos were apparently taped in summer of 2011, i.e. before the A8 full-motorway section opened, any newer signs are likely to contain more information, a trend which may be observed at Žminj and Kanfanar interchanges in the video. Here we go:

• at 0:21, Lupoglav exit, signposting: Trst/Buzet/Lupoglav exit Pula/Poreč/Pazin ahead
• at 2:22, Cerovlje exit, signposting: Cerovlje/Boljun exit Pula/Poreč/Pazin ahead
• at 3:07, Ivoli exit, signposting: Pazin istok exit Pula/Poreč ahead
• at 3:59 and 4:06, Rogovići exit, signposting: Poreč/Pazin zapad exit Pula/Rovinj ahead
• at 4:12, Rogovići exit, signposting: Motovun/Beram exit
• at 6:04, Žminj exit, signposting: Labin/Barban/Žminj exit Umag/Pula/Rovinj ahead
• at 7:12, Kanfanar interchange/exit, signs: Umag/Poreč/SLO/I exit Rovinj/Kanfanar/Pula ahead
• at 7:16, Kanfanar interchange/exit, signs: Umag/Poreč/SLO/I/A/A9/E751 exit Rovinj/Brijuni/Pula/A9/E751 ahead
• at 7:20, Kanfanar interchange/exit, signs: Dvigrad/Limski kanal exit
• at 7:20, Kanfanar interchange/exit, signs: Pula exit Rovinj/Kanfanar ahead
• at 7:36, Kanfanar interchange (now A9), signs: Zagreb/Rijeka/Pazin/A8/E751 exit Pula/Brijuni/A9/E751 ahead

The last one is a part of A9, but I included it anyway since it allows a U-turn to the A8. SLO/I/A (white oval signs with black letters) are International vehicle registration codes normally used to mark directions to nearby countries - in this case Slovenia/Italy/Austria.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC) The guy filming the trip was even kind enough to provide subtitles informing viewers when switching from one motorway to another!--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Excellent! Good job inquiring of the right people! Allens (talk | contribs) 22:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Trst, is Trieste in Croatian... forgot to note that.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Interesting that they didn't put "I". In the above, by "ahead" do you mean "this is where you get to if you get off at this exit and go a ways"? And, on the ones with multiple roads, could you glimpse which roads which town was listed as being accessible along? Allens (talk | contribs) 22:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Older signs (blue) rarely bear road numbers, motorway ones (green and yellow) normally do, but I couldn't make those out, they are normally written in a bit smaller typeface, and this wasn't easy. by exit and ahead next to directions I meant to represent an outbound arrow by "exit" and arrow pointing forward (or up) as "ahead", so that would be where you'll end up if you stay on the present road.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I understand the difficulty; hope you're not getting a headache from eyestrain... The second Rogovići exit would be the Ž5190? Allens (talk | contribs) 23:00, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually no. Everything marked as "Rogovići exit" is the same exit, there are multiple (not necessarily the same) signs ahead of each exit (as in case of Kanfanar). The route to Motovun would be D48 (switching later to Ž5007). Both D48 and Ž5190 connect to the A8 in the same interchange: beyond toll booths there is an at-grade intersection, and if driving south (from Rijeka), if one turns right, that's D48, alternatively (turning left), there's Ž5190.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

As difficult it may be to freeze frame in the right moment to read a sign it is also very interesting to see this video (to me at least), I drove along those a lot of times (especially the bit in the first video) but I could not take time to "admire the scenery" while driving. :) --Tomobe03 (talk) 23:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Matulji interchange - I don't think there is a directional signage towards Matulji in the interchange itself (Matulji interchange itself is signposted), because the interchange does not allow vehicles to leave motorway system, i.e. one can switch from A8 to A7 or vice versa or proceed along A7 if traveling from Rijeka or Rupa border crossing. I believe Matulji could be posted at Opatija exit since that one allows vehicles to exit the A8 and it is very close to Matulji interchange and located itself in Matulji.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, At 10:13 in the first video, there's a clear view of Opatija exit signposting and it reads Opatija/Matulji (exit to left), Pula/Poreč ahead. The same is repeated at 10:17, except Pazin is added to "ahead" direction.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Got it. Allens (talk | contribs) 22:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

At 11:17 in the first video, there is Veprinac exit, and Veprinac is signposted along with two other settlements, but the sign is particularly old (read: small typeface) and I cannot read that. Interestingly though, the sign indicates Pazin and Buzet ahead (instead of normally signposted Pula).--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually at 11:21 there is another set of signposts at the exit, and they are for Veprinac, Ičići and Opatija.--Tomobe03 (talk) 23:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

A Polish guy was kind enough to videotape driving through Učka Tunnel (duly posting at youtube here) and in between Zrinšćak 1 and 2 tunnels, Vranja exit is signposted at 4:19. The sign indicates the exit leads to Labin and Učka, and that road ahead (A8) leads to Pula, Pazin, Poreč and Buzet. At 4:39, Boljun and Učka Nature Park are signposted as served by the exit as well. At 4:43, the first set of signposted settlements is repeated, but in addition the sign indicates that the exit serves Rabac and Brestova - the latter is site of a ferry dock used by ferry service to Cres. This recording is quite shaky, but it plays back in real time so signs are much easier to make out.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:04, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Footnote clarifications

Current ref #24 - title of the cited article indeed speaks of 250 million Kuna assigned to diverse government spending in the Istria County, and those include the 165 million subsidy, specifically noted by the article.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I've tried to make it a bit clearer - just saying "Istria County" would imply the funds were going to the government of the county. Allens (talk | contribs) 22:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I assume that the "French deal of the century" refers to French company Bouygues which owns a substantial stake in BINA Istra - 16% directly, plus 45% stake in BINA Fincom which in turn owns another 67% stake in BINA Istra. Buoygues does not have a majority control in the company, and state-owned Hrvatske autoceste own approximately the same stake in BINA Istra, but I suspect editor/author/someone concluded that this type of title would sell more newspapers. The article itself is written pretty objectively but I seriously doubt that this motorway really is French deal of the century. Except maybe in Croatia.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

:-} Allens (talk | contribs) 22:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Managed to find a recent (2011) environmental impact study pertaining to addition of two traffic lanes to the present A8 route. I'll use that to add to the article over the weekend.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Excellent! Allens (talk | contribs) 15:34, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Estimated cost clarification

Regarding the estimated cost of 300 million Euro - it seems reasonably objective when considering length of 45km making the price 6.7 million Euro per km. The cheapest km of motorways built in Croatia was on the A1, between Bosiljevo and Zadar, (approx 7.3 million Euro/km) but this particular construction project entails only one carriageway to be built. Granted, Učka Tunnel (the second tube) is bound to be expensive, but the A1 stretch includes two tunnels longer than that (Mala Kapela Tunnel and Sveti Rok Tunnel) and quite a bit of smaller ones, plus substantial bridges. Of course, actual cost is probably unknown to experts who plan to fund this.--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Mark toll section on the exit list somehow?

I'm wondering whether it would be a good idea to mark the section (other than the tunnel) where toll is currently collected (I'd say so), and if so, how. Allens (talk | contribs) 22:40, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Hm, I'd rather not. The same idea came up during GA review of the A1 motorway and the reviewer was quite adamant that the RJL should have a very specific appearance.--Tomobe03 (talk) 09:35, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

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