Talk:AEW International Championship

Tournament bracket

I managed to come up with this tournament bracket using Module:RoundN instead of the monstruous wikitable.

Preliminary Qualifiers

Qualifiers

Final

June 8 – Dynamite

Buddy Matthews

10:32

Pac

Pin

June 15 – Road Rager

Ethan Page

9:25

Miro

Sub

June 26 – Forbidden Door Pac Miro Malakai Black Clark Connors

June 22 – Dynamite

Penta Oscuro

9:49

Malakai Black

Pin

June 20 – New Japan Road

Tomoaki Honma

11:29

June 21 – New Japan Road

Clark Connors

Pin

Clark Connors

13:21

June 20 – New Japan Road

Tomohiro Ishii

Pin

Tomohiro Ishii

Pin

Yoshinobu Kanemaru

19:01

It's not perfect by any mean, but it might be if someone smarter than me figured a way to use node_function{canvas} and created a div that looked nicer. MordecaiXLII (talk) 12:12, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Is it a new title?

AEW seems to think here that it is an entirely new title with Cassidy as the inaugural champion, so both titles should be separated imo. DasallmächtigeJ (talk) 19:20, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Their lineages are certainly linked as AEW places PAC as part of it here. That said, they do seem to reboot Orange's reign once it becomes the International championship. I'm inclined to say it's still the same championship that just got renamed. — Czello 19:29, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

They also declare it as a defense on commentary, I guess we have to wait and see whether they actually reboot the reign or not… DasallmächtigeJ (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

The way it's worded in the official AEW title history, it appears as if AEW considers the International title as the successor to the All-Atlantic title, rather than just simply renaming it. It also clearly says the the All-Atlantic title was retired on March 15 and the International Championship began the same day. I'd say All-Atlantic and International are separate, mainly because AEW says they are, and since it's their title, they get to set the rules. Vjmlhds (talk) 18:19, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds if they were truly separate then why didn't they create a new title history? They've oddly used the word retired but it's still the same title history. JDC808 ♫ 06:54, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

It seems that they're both separate and not. I have to concede AEW do present them as more than a renaming, although the fact that they share the same lineage means they're not entirely separate. The only comparative example I can think of is the ECW championship when it was rebooted from its "Eastern" incarnation to its "Extreme" one. Even that isn't quite the same, though (ECW presented it as a renaming, WWE recognise it as a new title). — Czello 07:21, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@Czello:, So, it's the Schrödinger's title. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Jokes aside, let's see sources. AEW announced the title would be upgraded, while other sources, like fightful, explain it's a rename, not a new title. AEW website includes the PAC and Orange reigns as All Atlantic. Solie points it's the same title. Wrestling title points it's the same title (however, stills All Atlantic name). My 2 cents, it's the same title and the website uses a weird way to explain "from this point, this is International", but it's the same title. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of whether AEW considers it a "new" title or a renamed title, here on the Wikipedia side I believe it should just simply be the one article and the renaming/lineage can be discussed within the article. I feel like it'd be redundant to have an article for a title that only existed for six months and then is "retired" but has an immediate and obvious successor, and the reigns overlap. I strongly suspect that a year from now, AEW is going to be stating the start of the OC reign for the International title was/is October 12, 2022, not March 2023. CeltBrowne (talk) 17:30, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

You can't just say "regardless of AEW". It's their title, so they set the rules. What other sources say is irrelevant, because the title isn't their property. It's like if you get a dog, and you name him Spot, but "other sources" say his name is Rover. It's YOUR dog, so whatever name you give it is the name it goes by. Likewise, it is AEW's title, thus whatever they say regarding said title is what WE go by. "Other sources" don't get to dictate how an entity presents it's own property. Wiki policy only goes so far...it doesn't allow editors to play judge, jury, executioner, doctor, or God, and it doesn't get to make judgement about what a company chooses to do with their own property. AEW considers the International Title as the successor to the All-Atlantic Title. Then that's it, period. Nobody else in this equation matters, because it isn't their title, thus they don't get to make any say over it. Nobody can tell you what to name your dog, and nobody can tell AEW how to promote their championships. It's your dog, and AEW's title...what you say, and what they say goes respectively. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Just to clear up some confusion; Everything from "Regardless" onwards was from me, CeltBrowne, not HHH Pedrigree. I forgot to sign my own comment. I've gone back and amended it now. CeltBrowne (talk) 17:31, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds true, but again, they still share the same title history, so like Czello said, it's kinda both, a new title but also not a new title. We don't decide the rules of their titles, etc., but AEW is kinda telling us two things so we have to make sense of it.

WWE has done something kinda similar. Like they say New Day were the first Raw Tag Team Champions. They were the first to hold it when the title got renamed to Raw Tag Team Championship, but they weren't the actual first champions. And then if you look at Charlotte Flair's accomplishments on her WWE.com bio, they list WWE Women's Champion and Raw Women's Champion separately but they're the same title (it just got renamed). JDC808 ♫ 22:54, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I do have an idea on how we can present this so that it makes sense. I'll post it here later when I get some more time. JDC808 ♫ 23:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• New Title - It has a new name and Orange Cassidy swapped the All-Atlantic title with the new AEW International Title when it debuted. I assume it has a different name on it and likely will have a different design if it doesn't already, so it's a new title.KatoKungLee (talk) 23:38, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

  @KatoKungLee this has happened many times in wrestling. New name =/= new title. And it's the same exact belt design, it just says International instead of All-Atlantic. JDC808 ♫ 00:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  Presently it's the same physical belt (except maybe the words "All-Atlantic" changed to "International"). Even if the design does change, that doesn't make it a new championship. Consider how many times the WWE Championship has changed both its name and its design. — Czello 07:48, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  Czello It's like we are completely disregarding AEW's take on the title. Quoting directly from the AEW website: "The AEW All-Atlantic Championship was retired on March 15th 2023". Also: "Orange Cassidy became the first AEW International Champion in Winnipeg, MB at the Canada Life Centre on March 15th, 2023". AEW - the people who own the title, says one title is retired and replaced by another. We as Wikipedians don't get to dictate how a company views their own property...it isn't our place or within our boundaries to do so. Not our place to play judge, jury, executioner, doctor, or God. Something like this shouldn't even really be up for discussion. It's AEW's title and if THEY say All-Atlantic is retired and replaced by International, then that's it. It doesn't matter if 47 "other sources" say something different - it isn't their call to make. It's AEW's belt so their take is the only one that matters. Vjmlhds (talk) 18:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  This is a fair point, I hadn't seen that exact quote. I suggest therefore we revert to this version, where the list most closely resembles AEW's (unless a compelling point can be made otherwise). — Czello 18:34, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  Czello Tis been done. Vjmlhds (talk) 18:39, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  Hello, if this is a new title, then it needs its own page. That means one page for AEW All Atlantic, one page for AEW International. Two separate titles. If they carry the same lineage, then they're not two separate titles but the same title with a name change. The 3 for Cassidey's second reign in the reigns chart reflects that lineage. Otherwise, it's time for a separate AEW International Championship page. EditorRock (talk) 14:42, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

  Says who? AEW themselves present it like this. — Czello 14:46, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

  Common sense. But who am I to say? Have at it. EditorRock (talk) 14:52, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

  Sounds like WP:OR. Ultimately all we have to go with is AEW's own declaration on the matter. — Czello 14:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

  @EditorRock That's the thing though, the official title history includes the All-Atlantic Championship's reigns, however, the descriptions say that the All-Atlantic title was retired on March 15 with the International Championship established that same day, with Orange Cassidy's reigns reflecting this. So it carries the lineage of the All-Atlantic, but at the same time, they consider the International a new title. AEW could have made it simple and just said it was a rename, but they've decided to muddy the waters by saying it's a new title despite the lineage. We're trying to reflect how AEW is presenting this. Sure, we could create a new (short) article for a title that only had two reigns and didn't even make it to a year of existence, but why do that when it can all be covered here? JDC808 ♫ 22:58, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I've made some edits (still working) to hopefully clarify that this is considered a new title so it makes sense for a reader wondering why it says both All-Atlantic and International. Let me know what you think, particularly the infobox. --JDC808 ♫ 02:03, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

JDC808 I can live with that. Vjmlhds (talk) 04:24, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

This titles lineage and article has become incredibly confusing even with the current way it's been edited. In my opinion I think it would be less confusing for readers if a new/separate article was created as AEW themselves say it's a new title with Orange as the first International Champion. Just adding my 2 cents. Speedy Question Mark (talk) 22:54, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

@Speedy Question Mark Just curious, how is it confusing in its current state? JDC808 ♫ 01:24, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

The article is presented as if it's the same title but also that it's not at the same time, I don't think I really explained it well. Speedy Question Mark (talk) 16:19, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

@Speedy Question Mark And that unfortunately is how AEW is presenting it to us lol like if you look at the official title history, it includes the All-Atlantic title's reigns, but in that same title history, Orange Cassidy is listed twice with it saying he was the final All-Atlantic Champion and inaugural International Champion (and the url for the title history on their website still has "All-Atlantic" in it). And when Orange Cassidy defended the title last week, they even touted it as being his 16th title defense or whatever number it was. JDC808 ♫ 03:17, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, the issue stems from AEW's lack of clarity on this. I think for now the article best represents what they've told us, but if they make it clearer in the future we'll have the opportunity to update the article. — Czello 09:51, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

And now it seems we have that clarity. Thanks Vjmlhds for spotting this and updating the page. — Czello ^(music) 14:00, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Old title or new title, this page is very messy

If this is the same title, the stats can all be simplified. If these are different titles, they shouldn't share a page. I have a preference (same title) but either way is better than the weird middle the page is in now. It's very messy and there's no precedent for it elsewhere.

82.41.115.174 (talk) 16:05, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

After all that...

After all the back and forth we did before, AEW has now changed their mind, and consider the International Title to be a continuation (or "leveling up" as they put it) of the All-Atlantic Championship.

Their belt, their rules, so if they want to reestablish the All-Atlantic/International Title as all one belt, they can.

Not the first time AEW has readjusted title histories, remember they retroactively gave Toni Storm credit for a Women's Title reign after all the mess about "interim champions". Vjmlhds (talk) 14:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds Good and thanks for catching that. This title has just been a bit of a mess since the beginning lol first the name (although "All-Atlantic" was a nice name, it should have always been "International"), and then the renaming and whether or not it was a separate title. At least this is settled. JDC808 ♫ 01:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

It's now American

AEW has now gone ahead and officially renamed it the American Championship. As with all the other name changes this title has gone through, since it's their belt, whatever the want to call it is what we go with, since it is THEIR title. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd be careful about this one as it seems to be a heel parody akin to when Lance Storm renamed the WCW United States Championship as WCW Canadian Heavyweight Championship. Especially given the side plates of the belt used and the fact that the main championship history page still refer to it as the "AEW International Championship" only means that the belt will be reverted back to the International Championship at some point. retched (talk) 14:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That belt has had many name changes in such a short time. It's like the TNA Legends...err...Global...err...TV...err...King of the Mountain Championship. Besides, AEW itself is listing the title as the American Championship on their championship roll call (as I referenced above), Bottom line it's their belt, so if they wanted to name it the "Double Trouble Crap on a Stick Championship", then it's their prerogative and we just have to go with it, because it's their title. Vjmlhds (talk) 18:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vjmlhds did not see this conversation here, but no it is not an official name change. It is like how retched explained. This is also a play on what Will Ospreay did with the IWGP United States Championship and unofficially changing it to the United Kingdom Championship. I've seen many people online bring up the many name changes of the title with that exact TNA example. It's only had one name change (All-Atlantic to International) and this one is just a brief unofficial one for MJF's character. JDC808 ♫ 22:46, 25 July 2024 (UTC)