Talk:A Conspiracy of Hope

Info box

While appreciating the good intention behind adding the U2 and Police tour info to the info box - I think it is off topic. Those tours were neither direct predecessor nor direct successor tours to this. Those were tours by artists who supported Amnesty and this tour. By that token we would add in the preceding and subsequent tours by every artist who appeared at any of the concerts!

we need a new or adapted info box - that is about Amnesty events - not about tours per se. That this was a "tour" is much less important than it was an event for Amnesty

eg the preceding event for Amnesty prior to this tour was The Secret Policeman's Other Ball (1981)

the next event was Human Rights Now (1988)

BTW - "Amnesty events" rather than "Amnesty Benefits" - as some of the events were raise awareness rather than funds Davidpatrick 18:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I understand your position, but as the original author of these articles, I have to strongly disagree. Tours such as this, Human Rights Now! Tour, and Vote for Change tour, are significant in the arc of these artists' touring histories. For example, this tour informed U2 that their audience had further increased, and that they could play stadiums during the Joshua Tree Tour. The Human Rights Now! Tour was the last for the E Street Band for 11 years, which is certainly significant. And the Vote for Change tour marked Bruce Springsteen's most explicit partisan political positioning ever, which may have influenced the subsequent Devils & Dust Tour and the U.S. attendance problems for the Seeger Sessions Band Tour. So this threading that was done in these infoboxes is important and should be restored. Wasted Time R 18:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

As for your objection that we would add every artists' preceding and following tours into these boxes, no, only those for which tour articles exist, which is a small fraction. Wasted Time R 18:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I totally understand and agree with your point about how important this tour (and the 1988 tour) were in the development of those artists in respect of several issues - including type of tours they could do on their own - and their political developments. I think that those points should be strongly made in the text of the articles. Also in the texts of the articles about those artists. And - arguably - in any info box listing the sequential tours of each of the artists. ie this was the tour that that artist undertook at that time - post that one - pre this one...

Where I respectfully and strongly disagree with you - and should be debated civilly between us on this page - is whether the artist tour info belongs specifically in an info box for this article.

You are to be commended on initiating these articles. They are worthy. As the prime mover and upkeeper of the various articles about The Secret Policeman's Balls - I am of similar opinion as to their import as you.

However the 1986 and 1988 tours were not primarily milestones or stepping stones in the touring trajectory or chronology of several individual artists. And should not be seen as that retrospectively. Which is what the context-less simplicity of an info box implies to the uninitiated. They are first and foremost "events for Amnesty" - and any shorthand chronology listings in an info box should relate them to the chronology of Amnesty events. Davidpatrick 19:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Articles can have multiple infoboxes and sequence lists. So we could certainly have this article contain both an "event box" that links to prior and later AI events, as well as "tour boxlets" that link to the prior and later tours for artists that have tour articles. My use of the tour box here was trying to get all this in to the one box form I had available - and I did link to the later AI tour as the first entry in the prev/next area, and would've linked to the Secret Policeman balls except they weren't really tours (but I have no objection at all to linking to them anyway, since I fully agree they were part of the development). I'm not an infobox wizard, so I'm not volunteering to create these more sophisticated structures. If you do it, great! But I think what is there now is still better than what you did, which broke the existing infobox threading chain for the artists in question. Wasted Time R 19:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

That offers a solution. And if we go down this path - I think the first info box on the page should def. relate to the Amnesty aspect as that is clearly more primary and unique than the tour aspect. The second box would be the tour box you have set up. I would suggest some slight changes in the wording of the tour info box to make it clearer.

eg - what exactly does this mean?

Tour by Various

it is not clear.

and this header?

Various tour chronology

To be clearer that one could become

Tour chronology of participating artists

Alas I am not a wizard at these info boxes either. We would need to find someone who is.

New info box should be

Events for Amnesty International

previous "TSPOB" (1981) next "HRN" (1988)

thanks

Davidpatrick 19:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Within the limitations of the current info box, I've made a few tweaks to address your above points. Wasted Time R 20:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. A definite improvement. And it will certainly do for now. Personally I still think that it's confusing to have individual artist tours listed as though part of the Amnesty tour sequence - but I understand your motivation and I appreciate the effort to reach a compromise solution for now. Hope we can find someone to help create a separate box - or find a way to make this box clearer. Thanks for dealing with this in such a civil way. Davidpatrick 20:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Info box follow-up

User:crashintome4196 made a simple change to the tour infobox that allows the "Extra chronology" template to be used, and now the infobox clearly labels and separates the AI chronology from the individual artists' chronologies. Wasted Time R 11:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Article name

Per a previous discussion on this in 2007, a consensus was formed that "Tour" should not be part of the article title. See User talk:Wasted Time R/Archive 2#Title of two Amnesty tour articles and User talk:Davidpatrick#Re: Title of two Amnesty tour articles. I think this was correctly decided at the time; the name "A Conspiracy of Hope" did not have "Tour" in its title, likely because Amnesty was eager for it to be seen as more than just a tour. User:Y2kcrazyjoker4 has done an article move to include "Tour", not being aware of this previous discussion. I'll ping Y2kcrazyjoker4 to point this out. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:16, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't aware of these discussions. I saw that U2's website listed it "Conspiracy of Hope Tour", indicating to me that was enough to warrant a move. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 00:50, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, no problem, I've moved it back. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

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