Talk:A Negress

An embarrassingly racist article

Where is the discussion of racism in this article - which is about a semi-nude painting titled "a Negress"? Why is it acceptable for the article to describe the subject of the painting as an "exotic woman"? I am amazed that this article has been linked from the front page before its obvious racism has been addressed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.1.100.92 (talk) 09:28, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

If you have any reliable sources concerning such discussion, feel free to provide them. This arcticle could be expanded (take paintings by Paul Gauguin as an example). If there are no such sources, there is nothing more we can do. Note editors from other cultures than yours may not share the same taboos and definitions as you. Pavlor (talk) 09:54, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Exotic simply means "originating in or characteristic of a distant foreign country", which from the point of view of the Polish artist, is true. There's nothing inherently racist about this term. --Atlan (talk) 23:08, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 27 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus not to Move. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:54, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

---

A Negress → Murzynka – There doesn't appear to be a source for the idea that A Negress is the common name of this painting in English. In the absence of such a translation consistently used by reliable sources, WP:UE suggests we should stick with the original Polish name. – bradv🍁 03:29, 27 March 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 08:27, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose MOS:ART/TITLE states that Foreign-language titles are generally only to be used if they are used by most art historians or critics writing in English. I note that there doesn't seem to be a common English translation used for this work: a search brings up "A Negress", "The Negress", "A Black Woman", "Black Girl", as well as some (but not most) simply using "Murzynka". 162.208.168.92 (talk) 04:19, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
• "Support per nomination. The painting is the work of a Polish artist, it has been part of Poland's artistic heritage for over a century and its Polish-language title is the original one. Since this painting does not have an "official" English-language title, it should be referenced by its Polish title rather than by one of a series of random and / or inconsistent English translations of the Polish title. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:30, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose WP:UE actually supports a translation: "In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." Translation will certainly result in greater understanding for the English-speaking reader; very few English-speaking readers have any idea what a Murzynka is. Ewulp (talk) 00:28, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

  It's not a particularly good translation though—blindlynx (talk) 18:41, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Murzynka is a red link right now, if this move does not go through, a redirect seems justified. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support given that the current title is not a common name in English and it is not an accurate translation of the title of the work using the original title is best—blindlynx (talk) 18:17, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

  Not a Polish speaker myself, but the sources I've checked seem to confirm that "Negress" *is* in fact the most accurate translation of Murzynka. It's a word that is seen as derogatory today (which wasn't the case in 1884 when this was painted); I think that some editors would prefer to see it go away, but Wikipedia policy doesn't support this. See WP:NOTCENSORED. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 22:47, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

  It still needs a source. Not just that "Murzynka" is a derogatory term, but that this painting is referred to, in English-language reliable sources, as "A Negress". – bradv🍁 03:51, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

  The most reliable I've seen are the Polish Ministry of Culture and Radio Poland. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 05:47, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

  To be clear there is still debate about the neutrality of the Polish word, and it's current usage is probably closest to "coloured" in english. That said there is still a problem with the translations in the sources you provided ones uses just 'Negress' the other use ' a Negress' other sources [1] use 'Portrait of a Negress' or [2] 'A Black woman'. The point is that Bradv is right there isn't a English common name and we should default to the original title—blindlynx (talk) 14:53, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

  As the earlier replies indicated, per MOS:ART/TITLE and WP:UE, foreign names are only allowed if used in a majority of English-language sources. That's not the case here. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 15:07, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

  Per WP:UE If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader. There is no consensus in sources on how to translate the name to english and it's not our job to pick one to elevate or make up a new one—blindlynx (talk) 15:36, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

  Actually, the policy you just cited says that's exactly what we should do. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 15:52, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps your Polish is better than mine, but i don't think we can accurately translate it without heavy qualification—blindlynx (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

• Relisting comment: Is the usage in English sources simply divided or actually rare? Also, the translation convention seems to be only for geographical objects or structures with few reliable sources according to WP:UE. (Non-administrator comment) ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 08:27, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - While there are some variations of the work's title (Portrait of a Negress[3], A Negress[4][5], The Negress[6][7], A Black Woman), English sources predominantly do not use "Murzynka". -- Netoholic @ 21:43, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 13:28, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

• Note - Google Translate is not gospel, but it does translate Murzynka to Negress. Obviously, Negress is an outdated and offensive term. But, from what I can tell, so is Murzynka. We should remember that WP is not censored, and we should resist attempts to move the article based upon the fact that the word Negress is no longer used (and thankfully). ‡ Єl Cid of Valencia ^talk 13:49, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment. English Wikipedia has had, since September 27, 2011, the article, Murzyn, which discusses the use of this term within Polish language. Since "Murzynka" is the feminine form of "Murzyn", it should automatically redirect to it. Taking this fact into account, I am striking my above vote "Support per nomination" and would support either a move to the main title header, Murzynka (painting) or the retention of the current title, A Negress, as preferred by consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:55, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:USEENGLISH. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.