Talk:A Trick of the Tail

Tone

This article as written is basically a big, unsourced album review. Someone with more knowledge of the album might consider making this more neutral in tone, or at least find citations to back up the many opinions in it. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 16:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I've cut out all of the review-style comments. A lot of deleted text but I don't think Wikipedia is the right place for most of it. JamminBen 11:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Possible improvements

Perhaps this article could be improved by writing about the music or other interesting facts rather than whether the album "surprised" people or got good reviews. For instance:

• Dance on a Volcano features an unusual time signature - it's either 7/8 or it alternates between 7/8 and 4/4 - I think?
• Squonk verses are largely based around a few chords with the same bass note
• A piano-only version of Mad Man Moon can be found on Genesis for two grand pianos - bizarre really as the track is mostly piano anyway
• Los Endos is the only instrumental track on the album, featuring bits of Dance on a Volcano and Squonk - Added this
• Some of the album is about mythical creatures, e.g. Squonk, A Trick of the Tail
• This is also the first album where the tracks are credited to specific band members. Previous albums listed the music as being written by Genesis; albums from Genesis (Shapes) onwards were written by Banks/Collins/Rutherford, except for Calling All Stations - Added this
• The line-up for this album produced Wind and Wuthering and Match of the Day (EP) - and Seconds Out (I think?) - but that was all. It might be worth starting here for citations because I'm sure I've read various people saying that this line-up was the best - usually they choose one of the two albums in this period, but there is sometimes a side-reference made to the line-up

I've deliberately put these points on the talk page because right now I have time to write them but not enough time to organise them into something coherent. Also I wanted to see if anyone else had an opinion on HOW to make the article better, i.e. what to write about.

I hope this is useful. JamminBen 05:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if you'll see this nearly 3 years later Ben ...

* Dance on a Volcano is indeed largely in 7/8 according to the published score that I have. Not unusual for Genesis, but a characteristic that is often noted. The intro is in 3/2, 3/4, 4/4 x 2 bars, 3/4, 7/8 x 3, 3/4, 7/8 for the rest of the song (apart from 7 bars of 4/4 before 'On your left ...').

* Credits - I think the article must have been edited since you added this as while the credits are shown, the point about this being a change is not. I think its a noteworthy fact that I feel inclined to put back in.

* I think you're right about the band line-up except for additional musicians on the live album, not so sure about production on that or the EP.

Gandru (talk) 12:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Track links

Links were recently added for Squonk and Ripples. Squonk links to a page with info about the mythical creature rather than the track; this seems irrelevant in the context of this article. Ripples leads to a brief description of the track that doesn't stand too well as a separate article. I say this because I wouldn't expect every track to have its own page. Thoughts? JamminBen 09:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Setlist

i just added a setlist from the 1976 tour, and it was deleted. why?

i think its is very relevant information about the album and its following. If W&W has a setlist, why can't Trick? 64.56.225.204 (talk) 03:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Remastered section

Is this section really informative/necessary? I have tidied it up in line with wp:album but I think that it might be summed up in the sentence "The remastered version of the album had slightly different track timings". Thoughts? Best Witchwooder (talk) 07:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Your Own Special Way/It's Yourself single

Having actually read the It's Yourself arcticle I see that it should appear as a B-side to singles for both this album and Wind & Wuthering and will revert/edit accordingly! Gandru (talk) 13:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Dance on a Volcano article?

Can someone please tell me why the most epic song on the album, Dance on a Volcano, is the only track on the album with no article written for it? DOAV is an incredible song with easily the most powerful opening of any Genesis song, it's a marvellous album opener, and of course it was one of the band's most played songs live (it was also requested by a hell of a lot of crowd members in the 2007 tour if you watch the live show, with some of them holding up boards reading "WE WANT DANCE ON A VOLCANO"). DOAV is a part of Genesis history - it's the first recorded song without Gabriel on vocals, many Genesis documentaries have the song in the background, and Banks himself said that it was one of their best songs on the songbook. Can someone please write an article for this song? If not, why does it not merit an article compared to the other seven songs on it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.82.210.211 (talk) 08:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are created based on the subject's WP:Notability and the availability of verifiable information on the subject, not on the subject's perceived excellence. But to answer your question directly, it's because editors had not yet gotten around to redirecting the articles on the album's other non-notable songs. (Except for "Squonk" and "Mad Mad Moon", which contrary to your question were already redirects at the time of your post.) Martin IIIa (talk) 04:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Squonk

Under "squonk" is the remaster, which should have it's own section as it covers the whole album instead of the one song.

Squonk

Under "squonk" is the remaster, which should have it's own section as it covers the whole album instead of the one song. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.28.211.201 (talk) 01:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:A Trick of the Tail/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sparklism (talk · contribs) 08:05, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I'll take this one on. At first glance, it looks very close to GA status already - I'll post my comments when I've had a proper read through. Thanks. — sparklism ^hey! 08:05, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Sparklism. I dare say you'll find bits that need copyediting or querying, or suggesting small content changes, but we'll see how we go. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:03, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Lead

• The second sentence is a bit clumsy as it feels too long - can this be reworked?

Certainly - trimmed a bit Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• ...he sang lead from the remainder of the album. - "for the remainder of the album"?

Gone with "sang lead on the rest of the album" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• ..around 400 potential singers. Might be worth clarifying that these were potential new singers.

Replaced with "around 400 audition tapes" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. Reading this back, I see that my comment here was misformatted (I meant the italics to be on new). In any case, I can see why you've gone with 'audition tapes', which is great, but if you read this paragraph now you'll see that it isn't making the point clear enough about the band needing a singer. — sparklism ^hey! 19:22, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• The '5.1' bit of the 'surround sound mix' isn't mentioned in the body, and it might also be good to wikilink it for non-techy readers (like me).

I trimmed lots of unsourced technical stuff about this reissue out of the body, so here I've gone with "a deluxe package with bonus tracks" instead Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Background

• Would it be good to wikilink 'tour' to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway Tour in the first sentence?

I've wikilinked it for now, but I think for longer term the tour article probably wants to go to AfD as an unreliably sourced list that doesn't really add much to other articles. However, some people get quite upset when I suggest information is better suited to another website. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Keyboardist Tony Banks had been close to Gabriel as friends, and did not want to lose the band as well. This doesn't quite read right - as well as what?

I've copyedited this a bit, but the basic gist from the source is that Banks and Gabriel had been best friends since they joined Charterhouse aged 11ish, not regularly seeing his best friend for over 10 years and all his adult life so far was bad enough, but for the band he founded to split up at that point would have just been an annus mirabilis for him. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Did they receive exactly 400 replies, or somewhere around that number?

Added "around" - the source says 400, but I think they meant an approximation of that Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Some sent photographs → "Some applicants sent photographs"

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Recording

• In the second paragraph, "tackle" feels a little informal, would 'perform' be a better choice?

I've gone with "handle" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not sure if Stickland was an 'auditioner' or an 'auditionee'

My bad - I thought it was "auditioner" but Wiktionary says it's "auditionee", so fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Confusingly, it seems that either would've been correct, though 'auditionee' sounds right to me. — sparklism ^hey! 19:25, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Would it be appropriate to link key and/or range here?

Hmm, not sure - in my view this covers words that should not be linked ie : "everyday words understood by most readers in context" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. — sparklism ^hey! 19:25, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Songs

• The verb 'designed' is used twice in the first paragraph - is there a suitable alternative?

Gone with "intended" for the first one Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Collins sung the song.. - sang the song?

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• There's a dablink to Inheritor here

Fixed. Surprised I didn't get nagged by DPL bot for that, but there you go Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• We should wikilink Brand X, no?

Done, also mentioned it's a "side project" as it's not obvious what "Brand X" means there unless you've heard of that band Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I hadn't, as it happened :) — sparklism ^hey! 19:26, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Reception

• I've never seen the video, so what exactly is a "miniature Collins"? (Serious question - is it a puppet or an animation or something?)

Type "a trick of the tail video" into Google you'll find it. It's a shot of Collins from a distance overlaid with a shot of the band close up, making him look about 6 inches tall. I've gone with "a composted shot of Collins", linking to composting which describes the basic technique. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I did actually follow the link to composting there. I got very confused at first, but thankfully you'd got the right link in the article... — sparklism ^hey! 19:29, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Track listing

• This album is the first to crediting individual members of Genesis as writers. This doesn't quite make sense (to me, at least). Also, is there a source for this?

I've rewritten this, and added a source. The basic idea is that earlier albums just credited "Genesis" or "All Titles Done by All", which the press misinterpreted that Gabriel wrote the majority of the material, and individual writing credits were designed to debunk that myth. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Summary

• These suggestions are relatively minor tweaks, and I'll repeat my earlier comment that this is a pretty decent article already. I'll have another read through later and see what else turns up. Good work so far Ritchie! — sparklism ^hey! 12:10, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

@Sparklism: I think everything's been addressed, can you take another look? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Yep, much better. I've been through the images and they're all fine. Sources look good. I just think the lead needs a tweak (see my comment above)...keep up the good work! — sparklism ^hey! 19:27, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

The lead has been duly tweaked, so have a look now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:02, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Can't argue with that - I'm passing this as a Good Article. Well done! — sparklism ^hey! 20:25, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick and thorough review! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:27, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on A Trick of the Tail. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150329084033/http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?table=SEARCH_RESULTS to http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?table=SEARCH_RESULTS&artist=Genesis&format=ALBUM&go=Search&perPage=50

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:37, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on A Trick of the Tail. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150506190533/http://shop.genesis-music.com/trick-of-the-tail-cd-dvd.html to http://shop.genesis-music.com/trick-of-the-tail-cd-dvd.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:39, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Question about A Trick of the Tail

At the end of the second paragraph of the Songs section the last sentence currently is: "The title track was inspired by Banks reading William Golding's The Inheritors and described an alien visiting Earth and the reaction to it.[17]" I found this confusing for a couple of reasons. First, the wording seems awkward and ungrammatical. I think the meaning with correct grammar (my change in caps) would be: "The title track was inspired by Banks reading William Golding's The Inheritors and DESCRIBES an alien visiting Earth and the reaction to it." Although, I think that is still kind of awkward and would write it differently. But I followed the link to the book and the book is not about aliens visiting Earth it's about Neanderthals describing homo sapiens and a contrast of the simplicity of the Neandertals (it's written from their point of view mostly) and how they view the more sophisticated humans as some sort of God. But more confusing is that it seems to me the song is clearly not about an alien visiting Earth but a being who lives on Earth but in an alternate dimension or something. At the end the alien (the beast) convinces some humans to free him so he can take them to his City of Gold and they travel there and the humans think they see the city but then both the city and the beast are gone. I know the interpretation of songs is not at all a science, it's what makes great songs great is we all bring our own interpretation, but that the song is not about an alien but a beast from another species on Earth (which is more consistent with the book as well) seems pretty undeniable to me. But I don't have the biography that is stated as a reference. Perhaps that was the original idea but then they wrote it differently as the song progressed? Anyway, just thought I would mention it, this is a great article and I enjoyed reading it, this is one of my favorite albums of all time. If no one reacts I'm going to at least change the sentence to be grammatical and word it differently. I won't change the actual content unless I get the book and check the reference which I won't have time to do for quite a while. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 02:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

The source says, "based on William Golding's book The Inheritors, it told of an alien's arrival in a modern city and the reaction he receives.". Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Title track background

The source used, Bowler & Dray p. 120 says "based on William Golding's book The Inheritors, it told of an alien's arrival in a modern city and the reaction he receives". If you want to challenge this, the onus is on you to supply a better source. See the verifiability policy for more information. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:10, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

First, just because there is a reference doesn't guarantee that the reference actually supports what the editor claims it does. Second, it's not the job of an editor to just be a robot and regurgitate everything in any source, even if that source meets the basic criteria for a good reference. Books, articles, etc. say things that are wrong. If you look at the article on Wikipedia about the book The Inheritors it is clearly NOT about "an alien visiting earth" it's about (to quote the first sentence of the plot summary): "...an imaginative reconstruction of the life of a band of Neanderthals." The Neanderthals aren't like what anthropologists believe they actually were but rather are described as a quasi-magical race with powers such as telepathy. Some of them are stolen by the "new people" who are meant to be homo sapiens. That's also actually much more consistent with the song itself which is also not about an alien from another planet but rather about someone from a lost race of mythical creatures who eventually finds his way back to his own people. I don't have the Bowler & Dray book but I'll take your word that it actually says that. In which case either the book is wrong (I've read many books about rock bands and musicians that said things that were clearly wrong) or possibly Banks was remembering wrong when he talked to the author (which I doubt). Anyway, I don't care enough to track down the book or other books about Genesis and I don't think it meets the criteria for any tags so I'm not "challenging" in any of those senses, I'm leaving it as it is. But I'm documenting it here because if I was one of the editors who spent a significant amount of time on this article I would want to follow this up: double check the source and see if there are other sources where Banks talks about the song. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 16:57, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

That does not mean you can replace it with something that is unsourced, which is what people are doing. Where is your source? You need to cite it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:50, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I haven't replaced anything. Check the history page for this article. I haven't edited this page at all. I realize you need good sources. My point is (to reiterate since apparently I wasn't clear the first time) that I'll take your word that the source says that but (as another editor, as in someone who is not me, there are tools to check IP addresses that would verify that, I NEVER edit without logging in and I only have one active Wikipedia account) said on the history of their edit that was reverted "if your source says that then it's wrong". And to also reiterate: THE GOLDING BOOK IS NOT ABOUT AN ALIEN VISITING EARTH! So if the editors who maintain this page care about accurate information someone should address it but I have a pile of books to read on other topics that (as much as I like Genesis) are a lot more interesting so I don't have the time to track down other sources. But there is clearly a wrong statement in the article as it now stands and if people care about quality articles someone should fix it. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 15:16, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I mean "you" in the general sense, not "you" specifically, and I have changed the prose to something else that shouldn't cause this dispute. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:30, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Background

@Rockboy421: Please justify your changes here. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

"Ripples..."

The song was clearly inspired by the poem "Blue Girls" by John Crowe Ransom; in fact the first line is: "Blue girls come in every size, some are wise and some otherwise, they got pretty blue eyes". Both the song and poem are about the transience of youthful beauty.

The only sources that I could find to verify this probably aren't considered "reliable" by WP standards; otherwise, I'd add this myself to the article. E.g.:

• "Genesis - Ripples Lyrics Meaning". Lyric Interpretations.
• "Genesis - Ripples Lyrics". SongMeanings.

--136.56.52.157 (talk) 21:58, 8 April 2023 (UTC)