Talk:Aaron Copland/Archive 1

Archive 1

News article

[1] should be encorporated into this article. Kingturtle 07:21 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

Just curious, but should "Grohg" not be referred to as "Neoromantic" not "Necromantic"? I'm not familiar with the ballet, but unless it has to do with animating corpses or raising people from the dead, I'm not sure "Necromantic" is the way to go here. I'm going to go ahead and change it. If I'm wrong, feel free to change it back. Srwight 13:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it is about raising corpses from the dead, so I've put it back. But heaven knows the terminology looks odd... --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 16:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I highly doubt that "necromanticism" would be a ballet style. --The Cowdestroyer (talk) 23:36, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Spelling

I thought it was spelled "Copeland"... - Woodrow 21:54, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You were mistaken :) --Camembert

what where his parent's names??

I don't know about his parents but the original name of the family was Kaplan.Ed (talk) 15:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

WW2&Copland

How did WW2 influence Aarons compositions? (Fanfare for the common man) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.22.196 (talk) 23:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

See Elizabeth Crist's book on this subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.16.176.22 (talk) 03:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Dance Symphony

An anon editor removed the "Dance" from "Dance Symphony" --just in case this was a good-faith edit, Copland wrote both a Dance Symphony based on the early ballet Grohg (ballet 1922-1925, Dance Symphony 1930) and a Symphony (1924, later arranged as Symphony no 1, 1928). I restored the original. Antandrus 04:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An anon editor added a remark to the media section that the family name has supposed to be Kaplan. Since it was contradictory and misplaced, I reverted it. Henry Troup 19:50, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

"modern"??

Aaron Copland (14 November 1900–2 December 1990) was an American composer of modern concert and film music.

Why the word "modern"?? For one thing, every musical work is by definition "modern" the moment it is created, regardless of style. For another thing, Copland was hardly one of the more "difficult" composers of the time; in fact, compared to what most people meant during Copland's lifetime by "modern music" was Stravinsky, Schoenberg, etc. compared to which Copland is pretty easy to get. Revolver 19:03, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Copland's early works (from the 1920s and early 1930s) are very modernistic, thorny, dissonant, jazzy, etc., putting him in the "modernist" camp of the time, when many neo-Romantics like MacDowell and jazzers like Gershwin were writing more accessible/conventional music. Many of his later ones are, too (though not they're not always the best known). Throughout his life, Stravinsky's influence on his music was strong (and Schoenberg's too, late in life). Badagnani 20:44, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Alright, I'll put a link to modernism (music). This is one more reason why I've always hated the term "modernism", which was a ridiculous (and patently arrogant) choice of self-description for artists at that time. Could they not imagine a time when their work would no longer be "modern" (in the dictionary definition sense "contemporary")?? But I'm venting. Revolver 18:41, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

The multimillion view youtube video Nyan cat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4 might be derivative of Rodeo Hoedown (2011) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.41.136.51 (talk) 04:50, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Category:Lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender people

As with any category, if the subject is included in this category there should be some mention in the article to support the inclusion. -Will Beback 04:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The New Grove article on Copland mentions his sexuality prominently (unusual for them). According to the article in the current edition, he was "one of the first prominent homosexual composers to co-habit with a romantic partner" (photographer Victor Kraft). Looks like it's not in our article yet... Antandrus (talk) 04:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

There isn't a whole lot on the Internet but a few websites mention at least two other men with whom Copland apparently had relationships by name. One was the librettist for The Tender Land, Erik Johns. Badagnani 12:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, there used to be a source. A stealthy POV pusher who I just caught today removed it back in March. Mak (talk) 08:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Can we please fix this? The article doesn't seem to mention it anywhere... a normal man running (talk)

Discography

The official SonyBMG Masterworks discography link for this artist is as follows

• Discography at SonyBMG Masterworks

It (in most cases) contains a full listing of in-print CDs released on the SonyBMG labels within the US (for the moment), along with track listings and in some cases audio clips (which will become more robust in the new year). Ecommerce links are provided inobtrusively.

I have been informed that it creates a conflict of interest to post these links directly from my account, so please consider adding the page to the link section. Thanks.

Softlord 23:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Minor Items Removed

It hardly seemed appropriate to include the Long Island Music Hall of Fame and a college fraternity award in the biography of this Master musician, and especially in the same paragraph which mentions his receipt of the Pulitzer Prize. No offense intended. Cab123 02:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)CAB123

I've replaced them, but don't feel that strongly about it. Just seems like awards he earned earlier in life deserve some mention... -- SatyrTN (talk |contribs) 04:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Works list

Shouldn't there be an official, complete & otherwise validated list of his works as a separate page, rather than just a "selected works" section of the article? It seems to me that other major composers have their output handled that way. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 17:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a great idea! -- SatyrTN (talk |contribs) 17:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your suggestion on the Talk page for Copland that he deserves a separate article listing all his works. Many (many) years ago, Boosey & Hawkes published a catalog of his compositions, but I wouldn't know where to find one now. How should such a page be arranged? Chronologically? By genres?

In any event, it shouldn't be impossible to assemble. I think there isn't that much left of Copland's that hasn't been recorded, so sorting out most of the necessary dry details shouldn't be difficult. A pity there isn't a comprehensive analysis on the order of Eric Walter White's book on Stravinsky's music.

Sources? The aaroncopland.com page isn't much. There's a good list at http://www.coplandhouse.org/info.asp?pk=239, which I think I'll add as a resource on the Wikipedia page. Any comments welcome. Signinstranger (talk) 18:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

There's a complete list at the Library of Congress starting here: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/copland/acworks.html. It includes unfinished or unpublished works, too. Anonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.146.46 (talk) 01:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Rewriting

I've done some rewriting but there's a bunch more to do. The article seems very haphazard in its organization (or lack thereof). I'll do what I can when I can. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 20:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This comment might be late as a follow-up but I'm glad I'm not the first to question this article's organization. Frankly, it's a mess. I'll do what I can to get things in order but this looks like a big job.Jonyungk (talk) 18:55, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunate bracketing of 'sexuality and ethnicity'

The article says "he was open and comfortable about his sexuality and ethnicity, unlike the closeted Bernstein" This implies that Bernstein was not only 'closeted' and 'uncomfortable' about sexuality (which is supported by a reference), but also about being Jewish - obviously untrue. I don't know of any evidence that Bernstein ever attempted to present himself as non-Jewish... The problem is the sentence that lumps being gay and Jewish together into one and implies that 'open' vs. 'closeted' applies to both at once. I will try to recast the sentence into something less fatuous. --Tdent (talk) 13:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Composer project assessment

The Composers project is reassessing all of its B-class articles. You can find my assessment of this article on the Comments page. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me on my talk page. Magic♪piano 16:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Conducting

In the conducting section, para one starts with:

Copland studied conducting in Paris in 1921...

Yet para two starts with:

A self-taught conductor,...

How can he have been both self-taught, and a student?

If both of these statements can be justified, I think some clarification is needed to explain away the apparent contradiction.

Fcw (talk) 01:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

"Jingo" Confusion

I'm wondering about the degree of relevancy of first pressings of Santana's 1969 self-titled LP and 45 RPM edit wrongly crediting Copland as writer of "Jingo," rather than the actual composer Babatunde Olatunji as on subsequent pressings - and how it fits in the scheme of things in Copland's entry here. (This confusion most likely explains the title shortening of what was properly "Jin-go-lo-ba," since Copland's "Jingo" was the fifth movement of his 1934 "Statements" for orchestra.) –Wbwn (talk) 22:39, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Popular Works

The section on popular works states that:

Impressed with the success of Virgil Thomson's "Four Saints in Three Acts", Copland wrote El Salón México in 1934, which met with popular acclaim, in contrast to the relative obscurity of most of his previous works. It appears he intended it to be a popular favorite, as he wrote in 1927, "It seems a long long time since anyone has written an ‘’Espana’’ or a ‘’Bolero’’—the kind of brilliant piece that everyone loves."

I assume Bolero here refers to Ravel's Bolero which was only composed in 1928 (a year after this supposed statement). I don't have the original source for this, but clearly this is a mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Musiclover488 (talk • contribs) 11:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it still hasn't been fixed yet. Is anyone interested in fixing it? --121.7.203.206 (talk) 12:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the citation (from Howard Pollack's 1999 biography of Copland) was perfectly correct. Pollack carelessly assumed that Copland had written that in 1927 (probably because of an often-cited article by Copland titled "Baden-Baden, 1927"), and overlooked the fact that Ravel only composed the Boléro in 1928. The trouble is, the passage was quoted from a different article, first published in 1960, titled "From a Composer's Journal". Copland had been in Baden-Baden in 1927, to be sure, but he returned there in 1955, and the context of the quotation mentions that he conducted the orchestra of the Südwestfunk, which was created only in 1946. Furthermore, on the same page Copland mentions speaking with Francis Poulenc about his as-yet-unfinished opera, Dialogues of the Carmelites. That opera was completed the next year, in 1956, and premiered in January 1957. Pollack's mistaken identification of the source transposed the quotation back in time some twenty-nine years. This all seems far too complicated to explain in the article, so I have simply substituted the original source and suppressed the reference to Pollack's second-hand citation. Unfortunately, the correction of date makes a complete mess out of the passage, where Copland is supposed to be anticipating his composition of El Salón México. However, there are so many other hash-ups in this article that one more won't make much difference.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:36, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Place of death?

Where did he die? Just need to know URGENT or I'll be in deep trouble. --121.7.203.206 (talk) 11:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Three Moods: composed in 1920 or 1921?

In the List of compositions by Aaron Copland article it's given as 1920, but in this article it's given as 1921. So is it 1920 or 1921? Is this a typographical error ? --121.7.203.206 (talk) 12:28, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Which Jean de la Fontaine fable?

Which Jean de la Fontaine fable did he base The Cat and the Mouse on? --121.7.203.206 (talk) 12:42, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, brilliant!

I just checked the The Cat and the Mouse article and guess what? It says that Copland wrote the piece in 1923. But, in this article, doesn't it say 1920? I tell you, these pages are really in a huge mess. Is anyone interested in fixing them? --121.7.203.206 (talk) 12:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Why is this protected?

Not sure why this article is protected - there is no reason listed. Once it is unprotected, could someone correct the reference to "Richard Rogers" to "Richard Rodgers"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.71.171 (talk) 02:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

You can usually find the answer by browsing the article's history for reverts. In this case it was sustained racist trolling. 88.105.103.245 (talk) 00:26, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Done; also I fixed the link to Oscar Hammerstein II. Sorry I missed your comment for so long. Antandrus (talk) 01:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

where he was born

wasn't he born in new york city? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.103.255.146 (talk) 19:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Notable Students

I trimmed down the list of notable students. Most of the ones listed I had never heard of! As a professional musician of nearly forty years who actually knew Copland and as a guy with a Doctorate in composition, I know a lot of people and a lot of names. I think that "notable" does not mean "someone with a Wiki page." Therefor, I have narrowed the list down to only those who are actually, no lie, really and truly notable. Gingermint (talk) 22:45, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Nice idea, but you left two less notable ones in, and accidentally removed Lucier, Moncayo, and Orrego Salas, all far better-known than Goldenthal and North. Don't worry, though, I've fixed it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:19, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Is the unknown Gordon Sherwood Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Gordon Sherwood not notable for this list even if "Copland considered him his most-gifted student" ( http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/05/sad-news-the-beggar-composer-has-died.html )? Should one assume that notability is the same as commercial success? --Jpclos (talk) 13:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The assumption here is that persons without Wikipedia articles are not notable, and the usual remedy is to write an article on that person (providing reliable sources, of course), to establish notability. There is a useful explanation at WP:WTAF. Commercial success is of course one possible notability factor, but not the only one. Copland's high opinion of him, on the other hand, does not by itself make him notable. Gifted people, after all, sometimes do not fulfill their promise.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Pictures

I know this is an encyclopedia, but does this article need more pictures? George8211 (talk) 17:13, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with pictures in an encyclopedia. Did you have particular images in mind, or perhaps certain places in this article that would benefit from an illustration?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

No, I was just looking through it and thought there was a lack of pictures. George8211 (talk) 17:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

It has three, as far as I can tell: a portrait of the composer, a photo of the Aaron Copland School of Music at Queen's College, CUNY, and a photo of the composer's home, now an historical monument. Have you checked Wikimedia Commons to see what suitable copyright-free images may be available? Other articles often have portraits from different stages of the composer's career to illustrate the corresponding biographical sections, but this may be difficult in Copland's case, for copyright reasons. Other illustrations typically include sample pages from manuscript scores or letters in the composer's hand, photos of important performance venues, and portraits of other persons particularly associated with important compositions.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:40, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I had a look on Commons and found two more: Commons:File:Aaron Copland 1962.JPG and Commons:File:AaronCopland.JPG. George8211 (talk) 11:30, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

The 1962 portrait is quite good. I think the later one (the composer seated at the piano) was formerly used at the top of this article, and was replaced by the better portrait currently in place. If you can you find appropriate places in the text, you may wish to insert one or both of these.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:04, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Infobox

I put up an infobox for Aaron Copeland, but it was taken down because another editor felt the article is "much better without an infobox." My experience with wikipedia is that articles should have infoboxes. The vast majority of GA and FA articles all seem to have them. Please advise whether I should be going around adding infoboxes to all the bios I come across that don't have them. I really thought articles are supposed to have an infobox whenever possible.ScoutandJem (talk) 10:51, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I see that the editor who reverted the infobox addition directed your attention to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Composers#Biographical_infoboxes. Have you read it? If so, what is your response to it?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:10, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Just read the guidelines for wikiproject composers- I happen to like infoboxes, but as I now see from the guidelines, adding them in this project is the exception, and not the rule. I also checked several composers randomly, and only popular music composers seem to have infoboxes, but almost never the classical composers. Sorry to have not realized this before I meddled. Learn something new every day!ScoutandJem (talk) 06:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Aaron Copland/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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at the very least needs citations plange 23:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC) ==Composers Project Assessment of Aaron Copland: 2008-11-3== This is an assessment of article Aaron Copland by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and documented deficiencies in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area will be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standard (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from? Y ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Y ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and compositions? Y ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? Y ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Y ===Illustrations and sound clips. (Assuming these are in existence.)=== N Article has almost no images or other media. Missing photo of subject. ===Inline references, sources and bibliography=== Y ===Clear structure (WP:LEAD etc.), compliance with WP:MOS, project guidelines etc=== Lead is too short for an article of this length ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article citations need to be collapsed (identical references merged) Article footnotes should be in consistent format (preferably all split, as most of them are) Article needs (more) images ===Summary=== A well-referenced, fairly complete article. There appears to be some overlap in material between the biographic section and the section on his compositions and influences; it might be appropriate (especially given the length of the article) to split the biographical material into a separate article, and summarize it here. I think this article has the potential to be a Good Article, but it desparately lacks visual content, including a photo of its subject. Hold at B class. Magic♪piano 16:30, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 16:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 06:28, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Was Copland really a communist?

This article states that Copland was a communist. However, it was said on Something Understood on June 12 2016 that, although in the McCarthyist witch hunts (witch hunt in the modern sense) Copland was accused of being a communist, this turned out not to be so.Vorbee (talk) 23:13, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Where does it say that? I cannot find any statement to this effect. There is extensive discussion of the witch hunts, and mention of some friends and associates who joined the Communist Party, but that is hardly the same thing. The discussion appears very clear and well-balanced in this regard.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Honestly don't see what you mean. The Personal Life section states that Copland did not join any political party but supported the Communist Party USA ticket in 1936 and his liberal political leanings made him suspect during the McCarthy hearings. Supporting and being a member of aren't the same at all.Jonyungk (talk) 00:18, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Golden-muse-mural fanfare-for-the-common-man cincinnati-ohio 05-21-2016.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:52, 8 August 2019 (UTC)