Talk:Aaron Frenkel

Neutrality

I've edited the article, added references and deleted unnecessary and non-documented facts. The External links category was way too extensive. Yinonk (talk) 16:16, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

This page remains ludicrously biased, relying on dubious sources. A cleanup is necessary. --Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 19:40, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

What is questionable is to write about a well-known businessman, who is an 'arms dealer' and then come and complain on the talk page. You edit warring with anonymous in the namespace and both of you will be blocked. 2A01:6500:A036:2A2E:C57D:1E13:3550:AFF4 (talk) 20:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

These edits are certainly not acceptable on the English Wikipedia, they go beyond what can be attributed to the source provided.

I warned the user on their talk page, feel free to revert their edits if they continue with this behavior. 2A01:6500:A051:4891:84A0:9E22:2910:4954 (talk) 21:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not understand why his widely reported association to Vladimir Putin has been removed. It is a matter of public knowledge. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 06:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll explain briefly (even though you seem goal oriented): The claims about an individual connection with Vladimir Putin are also naive. As part of his very important role in the World Jewish Congress, he maintains contact with heads of state wherever there are Jews (including outright enemies of Putin's), so insisting on the "sources" in this context is at best 'cherry-picking' which is not a good recipe for writing a neutral and balanced encyclopedia. 2A01:6500:A051:4891:84A0:9E22:29DF:7CF8 (talk) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply and the additional context. I have included in the philanthropic section that he has worked to further Jewish cultural causes internationally, reflecting this. I believe it is still noteworthy to include the section on Putin, as Frenkel received an award from Putin, and, as IntelligenceOnline reported, connected a major aircraft manufacturer with Moscow. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 14:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The information about the award he received from Putin should be mentioned in the section on the awards he has received, and the one granting the award is not the individual Putin but rather the 'President of the Russian Federation', of course. Unless we choose based on ulterior motives to tie him to Putin... that's not fair. 2A01:6500:A051:4891:84A0:9E22:2928:2FE0 (talk) 14:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not understand why it is claimed I have "ulterior motives", when every point has been well-sourced, with sources which have interviewed Frenkel in the past. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 15:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Apparently they claim that, because it was important to you to push the term 'arms dealer' and you didn't rest until you tried to insert it into the article about his wife as well... considering that all your contributions are focused on this topic. Well, that is very strange. 164.138.124.64 (talk) 15:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

That is for editorial consistency. These points have been added using reliable sources. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 16:12, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You are giving too much weight to journalistic sources even regarding seemingly trivial facts, which the press tends to gather from Wikipedia without verification. 2A06:C701:4B98:2900:88A1:3A2E:43B1:D739 (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

These are sources which had interviewed Frenkel directly. We have to use reliable sources, as per Wikipedia's own guidelines. I don't know whether you're a PR Agent of his - but this information you're providing can't be found anywhere else. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 05:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

This source mentions that Frenkel owns UVision, a company involved in the marketing and manufacturing of drones, munitions and other weapons. Why is this being excluded? Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 07:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

After we reached an agreement that Frenkel is a legitimate businessman holding a broad portfolio of companies, including also producers of super-advanced weapons, and that the term 'arms dealer' you tried to label him with was an unpleasant and disingenuous exaggeration, you found a new way to write that by pushing the 'trade' into the paragraph about his companies? 2A01:6500:A048:2A2E:510:9F22:295F:2CB8 (talk) 08:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not understand your point - I never disagreed to him being a 'legitimate' businessman. I said that the full extent of his business activities, which are widely reported elsewhere, should be present on this article. They are fully sourced and relevant. The source, which again, has interviewed Frenkel, described him as being involved in the trade and manufacturing of military items. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 09:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I am interested in aviation, eVITOL, Loitering munition and all like that.

I want to explain:

Lloyds is an agent and financier of the world's largest aviation manufacturers in the Eastern European region.

Among the companies in the field of aviation production is IAI. This compamy t is a half security and half civilian company.

Regardless of that, Frenkel wones UVision.

You mix between this to facts, I hope in good faith, But this is wrong to mix them up. JeremyWilsson (talk) 09:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know who you are referring to as "you" because I identify here besides myself at least 2 other users, and what seems more likely to me is that "you" is a PR agent of his disgruntled employee, or of some competitor? I have been writing on Wikipedia for five years and I don't dedicate all my Wikipedia time to this article, which with all due respect - is not of such great importance... While you registered specifically to smear this article, and you have the audacity to insinuate that other users are PR agents? Have you no shame left? Excuse me, but I don't see a good explanation for what you are doing to the article, you have one agenda and that is that at the end of the day it will be portrayed that the article is about an arms dealer and not a multi-millionaire philanthropist and proud Jew who owns successful companies in a wide range of fields. At some point, admins will come here and put you in your place. 2A01:6500:A048:2A2E:510:9F22:295F:2CB8 (talk) 08:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

His activities in the military sector are widely reported on by reputable sources. I don't see why it should be excluded. This has been my entire point. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 09:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll add to this - I extended the section on his philanthropic work, so it is evident my goal is not to portray him in a disingenuous way. I have fully sourced all claims, and presented them in a balanced and neutral way. I do not understand the hostility. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 09:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no hostility, only a demand not to bias Wikipedia, and not to portray a businessman who owns many companies in diverse fields as an "arms dealer". And it doesn't matter if you gave up on that blatant title and started referring to his companies as engaging in "trade" in weapons. The site you are relying on makes a living from an audience that loves detective stories and espionage, and therefore may use non-neutral wording, which is why we never take terminology from it, only facts. If you stick to that, no one will have any complaints against you. And of course, you are always welcome to contribute your knowledge to other articles as well, not just this current one... 2A01:6500:A048:2A2E:510:9F22:2917:75AC (talk) 09:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I corrected my use of the term 'arms dealer', as it wasn't representative of the full range of his business activities. I disagree regarding IntelligenceOnline's credibility - as a source, they have interviewed Frenkel, and serve as a trade magazine for the defense industry. This source had been used in this Wikipedia article prior to me adding further context. UVision, one of Frenkel's companies, advertises on their website that they are a manufacturer of munitions. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 09:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

OK all my attempts to negotiate and explain myself - failed.

Insist, mister Ravenofpoe1 deleting my edition even though I stick to the links he himself brought. JeremyWilsson (talk) 11:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

You included the linked sources, yes, but removed vital pieces of context. I do not understand why? Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 11:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

You are being naive... You 'don't understand' anything happening in the article unless it's the thing you registered on Wikipedia for: arms dealer! arms dealer! arms dealer! You have no encyclopedic understanding, you are single-mindedly pursuing a goal and for some reason the administrators have not yet reverted the article to its state before you came to 'enlighten us' with what you found on that detective and espionage site. 2A01:6500:A049:4891:84A0:9E22:2927:B59C (talk) 13:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

" with what you found on that detective and espionage site."

This source is a trade magazine for the defense and intelligence industry. They have interviewed Frenkel regarding his businesses and published extensively on him. They had been used as a source on this article before, which is why I used them again. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 13:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

"This source is a trade magazine"...

and that's exactly why they might slightly exaggerate in their descriptions of details. In any case, they cannot serve as a source for trivial facts that are conventionally taken from Wikipedia in the industry. They simply copied from the Hebrew Wikipedia, where it states there is no source for that ("source needed"). We cannot exaggerate how much we rely on them. 2A01:6500:A048:2A2E:510:9F22:29A7:C468 (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

The source had interviewed Frenkel directly. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 16:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Even when interviewing directly, they still make 'additions' of unimportant trivial details after the interview. Did he put the quote in Frankel's own mouth for example 'I am an Israeli citizen' or 'I see myself as a proud Israeli-born'? From what I've seen following the discussion here, he emphasizes his cosmopolitan Jewish side and not the Israeli aspect which seems to be something negligible from his past. 164.138.124.64 (talk) 19:49, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

This is going around in circles. It is a reliable source and follows Wikipedia's guidelines. His nationality is reported as "Israeli" elsewhere. There is no mention of any other nationality in any other source. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 20:16, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

No circles. The only circle I see is the circle of the target you drew with Israeli citizenship and the arms industry at its center - which seems to be very important to you for reasons you haven't told us. I would expect an objective writer to expand in parallel on all the man's other businesses, and not create a disproportionality, which is a bias in itself. You are steering the discussion to the quality of the 'source' because it's easy for you to talk about that, but if we lay the cards on the table - it seems an Israeli connection and arms trading are too easy a means to 'smear' a courageous Jewish leader. And I'll say it again: disproportionate focus on one particular business area of a businessman with a wide range of businesses is bias (and therefore - a distortion) of Wikipedia, even if it has sources. That's how I see it, and while Frenkel interests me about as much as an onion peel, I will protect Wikipedia as long as I can - I've invested too many years of my life here. 2A01:6500:A048:2A2E:510:9F22:29E0:92BC (talk) 11:21, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

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PR agent

One or more PR agents saying that they are acting on behalf of Aaron Frenkel are continuing to want changes to this article, including the removal of the paid editing tag which was added to the article in response to the edits by User:Yinonk. One of the editors has been told at User talk:Am 360#August 2017 that the place for any discussion is here on the article talk page, but he apparently doesn't want to listen, and he or his PR colleagues keep sending emails. Other editors will no doubt treat any requests on their merits. See also User talk:Yinonk#Trying to hire someone to remove tags. --David Biddulph (talk) 17:03, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

The advice to ask here on the article talk page had also been given to User:Am 360 at [[WP:Help desk/Archives/2017 August 14#removing {{UDP|date=August 2017}}]]. It may, of course be that the editor, who apparently is a native Hebrew speaker, doesn't understand English well enough to comprehend the advice which he has been given. --David Biddulph (talk) 17:11, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Description as an Arms Dealer

I'd like to create a new topic surrounding this, due to the obvious contention and disputes regarding the description. Frenkel has been described as an arms dealer by several sources. He has also been noted for his involvement in the arms industry as a middle-man, and owns companies involved in the production of drones and missiles. I don't see why this should be left out? Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 08:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You are disrespecting your interlocutors. On one hand you agree with them that the initial term you gave in his article "arms dealer" was malicious and biased, but on the other hand you open a discussion in a failed attempt to reintroduce that term. In parallel, you are behaving as if there is "ownership over articles" and you are the master of the house, of course. Reverting other editors freely... I have complained about you to the Administrators. This cannot continue this way, it has been over a week and you are not showing an ability for collaborative work. The obsessive preoccupation with one specific article probably also means we should not expect much benefit from you on Wikipedia in the future. It's a shame you were not receptive to the very clear comments on this matter. 164.138.124.64 (talk) 10:14, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I never claimed that it was malicious and biased - upon our discussion, we both agreed that the term probably didn't apply to Frenkel, as his activities aren't solely in arms manufacturing and dealing. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to interject again:

"We both agreed that the term probably didn't apply to Frenkel"...

and yet we continued inserting subtleties into the article that painted him in a dark light, taking his advanced technology companies and writing that they engage in "arms trade" when you know that's not their business. This is called biasing Wikipedia. Businessmen own companies to make money, technology companies produce advanced technology because that's what they love and know how to do. Technology is mostly used for good things and sometimes also for defense needs. The end user decides how to use it. "Arms dealers" are people who take advantage of wars and sometimes even encourage them for profit. There is no description further from this for people like Frenkel who are cosmopolitan-political activists for world Jewry. Depicting a universal Jewish activist as a war-monger is an unacceptable practice. 2A01:6500:A048:2A2E:510:9F22:29A7:C468 (talk) 15:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

How is it painting him in a dark light? It is fully sourced from a publication which has reported extensively on Frenkel and interviewed him. One of his companies describes itself as a manufacturer of munitions, not as a technology company which so happens to have military clients. I dropped the term "arms dealer" upon your consultation, as it wasn't appropriate to the nature of his businesses. I included mention of his business dealings, as they were widely reported elsewhere. I don't see it as being a positive or a negative - he's a businessman. His real estate and gas holdings are reported, so why not the defense ones?

I'll also note, his business practices are separate to his philanthropic work and I believe you're using the comparison in bad faith. I expanded his philanthropic section, and I admire that side of his work. Ravenofpoe1 (talk) 16:09, 22 May 2024 (UTC)