Talk:Abasgoi

The Abasgoi are considered the ancestors of modern Abkhazians

First of all Abkhazian is a wrong term, it should be Abkhaz, Armenians there are also Abkhazian citizens. Abkhaz is the ethnic term.

Secondly, Tsabal and Dal(Apsilia) and Sochi area (Sadz) are not represented among Abasgoi. Most of Tsabalan families are now living in the middle east (See Circassian Genocide, and Georgian Colonisation of Abkhazia), and they form the body of diaspora (I havent met any one from Greater Abkhazia that came from Ochamchira, almost all of us are from either from Sadz region (minority) or Aqua (Tsabalan, majority). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.172.111.240 (talk) 17:45, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Abasgoi and Apsilae

Apparently the terms shifted over time so sometimes it was Apsilae who lived to the north of Abasgoi (as the Oxford dictionary of late antiquity says: North of Abasgia was Apsilia with the fortress at Tzibile (Tsebelda) in the Kodori Valley, and then by the 6th century Abasgia had shifted to the north, between the rivers Gumista and Bzip). The problem is that the map in the article locates Abasgia to the north of Apsilia, but south of Gumista (near Sukhumi/Dioscurias), and thus not between Gumista and Bzip. Anyone knows of a good source which makes sense of all this? Alaexis_¿question? 10:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Ancient sources

Pliny the Elder, 1st century CE

“ The Rion rises among the Moschi .... It had a considerable number of towns on its banks, the most notable being Tyndaris, Circaeus, Cygnus, and at its mouth Phasis .... Then there is another river, the Charicis, the Saltiae tribe called of old the Pine-seed-eaters, and another tribe, the Sanni; the river Chobus flowing from the Caucasus through the Suani territory; then Rhoan, the Cegritic district, the rivers Sigania, Thersos, Astelphus and Chrysorrhoas, the Absilae tribe, the fortress of Sebastopol 100 miles from Phasis, the Sanicae tribe, the town of Cygnus, the river and town of Penius; and then tribes of the Charioteers with a variety of names. ”

Arrian's Voyage Round the Euxine_Sea, 2nd century CE. The list is counter-clock-wise, south-to-north.

“ The Colchians, who, as Xenophon observes, border on the Trapezuntines; as do the Drillæ, as he calls them, but who seem to me to be more properly called the Sanni ... The Machelones and the Heniochi border on these people, the latter of whom have a King called Anchialus. Next to these lie the Sydretæ, subject to Pharasmanus; and adjoining to the Sydretæ are the Lazi, a people subject to King Malavsas, who holds his kingdom from You. Bordering on the Lazi are the Apsilæ, governed by King Julianus, who received his kingdom from your Father. The Abasci border on the Apsilæ, whose King, Rhesmagus, received his crown from You. The Sanigæ border on the Abasci. Sebastopolis is a city of the Sanigæ, who are subject to King Spadagas, who received his kingdom from You. ”

Procopius, THE PERSIAN WAR, book II, XXIX

“ The river Boas rises close to the territory of the [14-19] Tzani among the Armenians who dwell around Pharangium. And at first its course inclines to the right for a great distance, and its stream is small and can be forded by anyone with no trouble as far as the place where the territory of the Iberians lies on the right, and the end of the Caucasus lies directly opposite. In that place many nations have their homes, and among them the Alani and Abasgi, who are Christians and friends of the Romans from of old; also the Zechi ”

Procopius, Wars, Book IV (beginning), III

“ 27 Now through the mountains which rise here the Phasis River emerges, having its source in the Caucasus and its mouth at the middle of the crescent of the Pontus. ... Now at the one end of the crescent, that, namely, which is in Asia, was the city of Petra, while on the opposite coast which forms a part of erupt the territory is held by the Apsilii; 33 these Apsilii are subjects of the Lazi and have been Christians from ancient times, just as all the other nations which I have mentioned up to this point in my narrative.

12 Beyond the Apsilii and the other end20 of the crescent the Abasgi dwell along the coast, and their country extends as far as the mountains of the Caucasus. Now the Abasgi have been from ancient times subjects of the Lazi, but they have always had two rulers of their own blood. 13 One of these resided in the western part of their country, the other in the eastern part. ...

Beyond the confines of the Abasgi along the Caucasus range dwell the Bruchi, who are between the Abasgi and the Alani, while along the coast of the Euxine Sea the Zechi have their habitation. 2 Now in ancient times the Roman emperor used to appoint a king over the Zechi, but at present these barbarians are in no way subject to the Romans. 3 Beyond these dwell the Saginae, and the Romans had held a portion of their coast from ancient times. 4 And they had constructed two fortresses on the coast, Sebastopolis and Pityus, two days' journey apart, and maintained in them garrisons of soldiers from the first

”

Justinian's Novella 28. Again the order is south-to-north.

“ Back of these lies our Lazica,.... Then follows the region of the Tzani, now under the control of our sway for the first time, .... Other nations further back are the Suani, Scymni, Apsilae, Abasgi and others, now, by the grace of God, our friends, and belonging to us. ”

Modern sources

War and Warfare in Late Antiquity (2 vols.): Current Perspectives, p. 344

“ Tzibile (Tsebelda) controlled the path from Apsilia to Misimnia... while Trachea (probably to be located at Noviy Afon) blocked the narrow coastal road into Abasgia ”

The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity, page 1

“ Abasgia (mod. Abkhazia) Abasgia occupied the north-east shore of the Black Sea. It was part of Colchis where the *cities of Gyenos (Ochamchire), *Pityus (Pitsunda), and Dioscurias (later *Sebastopolis) were founded during the period of Greek colonization. North of Abasgia was Apsilia with the fortress at Tzibile (Tsebelda) in the Kodori Valley. From AD 64 Colchis, including Abasgia, formed part of the Roman *province of Pontus Polemoniacus. The Abasgian province was later governed by an Archon appointed by *Constantinople. Arrian in the 2nd century mentions a Roman military presence in Pityus and Sebastopolis and notes that Rhesmagas the King of the Abasgi was appointed by Hadrian (Periplus, II). In the 3rd century Abasgia was overrun by *Goths and fell into decline. In the 4th and 5th centuries Abasgia was subject to *Lazica. Christianity reached the region in the 4th century, and the Archbishop of Pityus was subordinate to the *Patriarch of Constantinople. By the 6th century Abasgia had shifted to the north, between the rivers Gumista and Bzip; it was now subject to the Eastern Roman Empire with its capital at Anacopia (mod. Novy Afon). By this time Pityus and Sebastopolis were forts rather than cities (NovJust 28, pref.). ”

Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, 1857

“ ABASCI, ABASGI (Ἀβασκοί, Ἀβασγοί), a Scythian people in the N. of Golchis, on the confines of Sarmatia Asiatica (within which they are sometimes included), on the Abascus or Abasgus, one of the small rivers flowing from the Caucasus into the NE. part of the Euxine. ”

Воронов Ю.Н. Тайна Цебельдинской долины

“ Изучение синхронных памятников северо-западной Абхазии (исторической Абазгии) позволяет со всей определенностью говорить, что граница между апсилами и абазгами проходила к западу от Эшеры — в районе Нового Афона ”

Conclusions

TBD Alaexis_¿question? 12:46, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Apsilia was always located south of Abasgia. There is no contradiction in ancient sources in this regard. The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity makes an apparent error. As for the location of the Abasgoi, the hypothesis of their northward migration comes from the fact that Arrian (2nd century AD) mentions their neighbors, the Sanigae, as being in control of Sebastopolis (Pliny places the Abasgoi between the Apsilae and the Sanigae), while Procopius (6th century AD) finds the Abasgoi further north. In summary, the Apsilae dwelled somewhere between the Ghalidzga and Kodori and the Abasgoi north of them, between the Kodori and Dioscurias/Sebastopolis. Later, by the 6th century, the Abasgoi had moved north, displaced the Sanigae further north and established themselves up to the Bzyb. Around the same time or earlier, the Aspilae expanded to occupy all the territory up to the Gumista (close to the environ of today's New Athos), which formed a border with the Abasgoi.

For the 6th-century situation, the historian Zurab Anchabadze gives the following summary:

1. the south-western littoral region of modern Abkhazia up to the Ghalidzga was occupied by the Lazi;
2. to the north and north-east of them (up to Tsebelda) were the Aspilae;
3. southeastern highlands were occipued by the Misiamiani;
4. north-west of the Apsilae, up to the Bzyb, were the Abasgoi;
5. north-west of the Abasgoi, around modern Gagra, were the Sanigae. Анчабадзе З. В., Из истории средневековой Абхазии (VI-XVII вв.), Сух., 1959: 6-16.--Kober^Talk 10:15, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Alaexis_¿question? 13:39, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Abasgia - Abasgoi two separate articles

Abasgia and Abasgoi are two separate articles which talk about the same region. @Alaexis Lemabeta (talk) 10:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The former is supposed to be about the polity/region and the latter is about the ethnic group. But there is a lot of overlap, so they could be merged. Alaexis_¿question? 11:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)