Talk:Aberystwyth Castle

Untitled

Just a little mistake here. I've lived in Aberystwyth for nearly all my life, and I can guarantee that Aberystwyth Castle is not located on Pen Dinas. --Tene 20:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:MilHist Assessment

Not a stub, but a very nice start. I like that there's a picture, but I am sure that for a castle I've heard of (meaning it's not totally obscure and teensy), there has got to be more to be said. Expand upon the history of the castle, maybe include some overhead drawn diagrams of its layout. LordAmeth 16:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Tan-Y-Castell

Recently the old old naming was removed by @Sirfurboy:, I thought that leaving the old names was perfectly fine, besides there was a [dubious dicussion about the naming of Tan-Y-Castell, to reiterate, Tan can mean until the end or under. Looking at the Geography of the location of the castle, it was indeed until the end of land in the Kingdom of Ceredigion and made sense as a name. I believe the text can be left without a [dubious/dicussion tag. Any other opinions please? Cltjames (talk) 17:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The names were sourced to the Visit Wales page. You removed the dubious tag and added a second citation to the same source. But the source is wrong, and not up to standard for a historical article. It does not cite its sources, and is clearly poorly worded. Castell Tan-y-Castell, Aberrheidol castle and Old Aberystwyth are clearly not the old naming of the old castle. Let's look at each of these in turn:

1. Castell Tan-y-Castell is perhaps what this castle is called now. If you look on the OS map for Aberystwyth at grid ref 587788 you will notice a small settlement that is called Tan-y-Castell. This settlement is so named because it sits just below the castle which lies to the west of it, on a hill, surrounded by Coed Tan-y-Castell woods. The settlement is literally under the old castle. That is where the name Tan-y-Castell comes from. It is the name of the place, under the castle. If you visit it, it definitely feels under the castle. The castle on top of the hill, protruding from the woods, could well be described as Castell Tan-y-Castell (the castle of Tan-y-Castell), but that would be how it would be named since the settlement arose. It was never the original name.
2. Castell Aberrheidol is clearly wrong. I refer you again to the OS map. The river beside Tan-y-Castell that loops around two sides of the castle hill is the Ystwyth river. The Rheidol is further north, looping around Pendinas before entering Aberystwyth harbour. That river has never flowed south of Pendinas. So it is the new castle that might be called Aberrheidol, because that castle is literally found at the mouth of the Rheidol. The old castle is not. It is because this old castle was on the Ystwyth that Aberystwyth is called Aberystwyth. When the new castle was built, and settlement moved north, the old name was retained. So no, this was never Castell Aberrheidol.
3. Old Aberystwyth is also perhaps a suitable description of the settlement at Tan-y-Castell (although I have never heard it), but again, it clearly can't be the old name for the castle in the same way that "World War 1" was not the original name for the First World War. When the castle was the castle, this was not Old Aberystwyth. It was Aberystwyth.

Now we could say all of that, but there is no need. The encyclopedic information here is that the original castle was a motte and Bailey structure found on the south shore of the Ystwyth, and that Edward I built the current castle further north, at the mouth of the Rheidol, where it could be serviced from the sea. We don't have to name the old castle with dubious names. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:39, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, well, it's true that I didn't fully investigate the [dubious tag, however, normally a government website seems to be legitimate enough for articles here in Wikipedia. As for the complications involved in defining the name of the castle, perhaps a shorter note ({{efn) can be added, but it seems you've done all the research, maybe you have the sources to add... A simple google search produced [Gatehouse description, to me is enough to warrant Tan-Y-Castell as a former name, but again, do you have a better idea? As in, I don't see a reason for a complete exclusion. Cltjames (talk) 18:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

When we are looking at history, the sources we need to look at for our articles are secondary sources, histories, by historians. Visit Wales won't do, and aggregators like Gatehouse won't do. But let's look at one of the three sources that Gatehouse quotes, because that one seems to get repeated from time to time. Adrian Pettifer's Welsh Castles is quoted here [1] as saying that according to one source, the original castle was called Aber-rheidol. He notes the "curious transposition of names", because, in his view, the castle in the source is the one at Tan-y-Castell, on the shores of the Ystwyth, whereas Edward I's castle is called Aberystwyth, whilst being on the shores of the Rheidol. But although he notes this, Pettifer is, I think, quite wrong to identify the southern castle with the one destroyed by Rhŷs ab Gruffydd. The one source he mentions that names this castle is Brut y Twyysogion. You can see that at Open Library on pages 198 and 199 here [2]. But note that the same source also repeatedly names a castle at Aberystwyth. E.g. Pages 164 and 165 [3]. So this appears to be another castle. There are two better theories than that this refers to the Motte and Bailey castle at Tan-y-Castell. These are either that it was a previous structure already at the site of Edward I's castle, or else that it may have been located at Plascrug. Some years ago Plascrug primary school had an extension built and an archeological dig was carried out that identified some structures, but sadly no evidence of this former castle. However, it remains a good theory that it was located there, on the shores of the Rheidol, just within the tidal reach. But I don't see that we could actually say any of that, because we have no evidence. It could have been there, but wherever it was, it presumably co-existed with the Motte and Bailey castle at Tan-y-castell (except when it was burned down of course), located close to the mouth of the Ystwyth. There is no warrant to give it any other name. I think the text is fine as it is. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy so, the information is there, but it becomes original research, as there's not one conclusive source explaining the situation in regards to multiple castles and sites which have been confused over time. I would personally add the Adrian Pettifer quote you mentioned, as it best describes the confusion. But I don't have the sources, so you decide... Cltjames (talk) 21:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Pettifer just adds confusion. Again we have one entry in Brut y Tywysogion that once designates a castle that is (no longer) at Aber Rheidol (since it was burned down). We have multiple mentions of the castle at Aber Ystwyth (also suffering!) Samuel Lewis notes that it could be a castle located near the current one, or that maybe Aberystwyth was occasionally referred to as Aberrheidol. My own thoughts: perhaps the writer was just in error about which river they were looking at for that event. Whatever, it is clear from sources that the usual name for the castle at Tan-y-Castell was Aberystwyth castle. We don't need to muddy the waters here. Pettifer muddies the waters by mentioning the one mention of Aber-rheidol and ignoring the multiple mentions of Aber-ystwyth. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:46, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Source Review

I have replaced every single source on this page now and verified the content. It was all sourced to tertiary stuff like the BBC and Visit Wales and some self published websites. It is now sourced to secondary sources throughout. One of the sources is quite old, but it is still secondary, and I don't think we make any dubious claims from it. Having done this, it may now be possible to add a little more from the sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC)