Talk:Abitur

Germany: Statistics Section

I'm looking at the numbers in the statistics section and cannot find a source for them. I edited the Overview section, where the number of students leaving with Abitur in Germany was cited as 400,000 in 2005. According to the Federal Bureau of Statistics (Statistisches Bundesamt), that number is far too high. I think that the numbers in the Statistics section representing the percentage of students leaving with a Abitur or Fachhochschulreife (combined numbers, expressed as a percentage of all students) has equally been inflated. There is no source or reference for these numbers.

If I take the table from that Statistics section, which currently reads as follows:

Percentage of students graduating with Abitur or FHR (Studienberechtigtenquote):

Year	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010
Percentage	37.2%	36.1%	38.2%	39.2%	41.5%	42.5%	43.4%	44.5%	45.1%	46.5%	49.0%

and put correct numbers derived from the last available official statistics (for the years 1992 and 2004-2012), I get the following percentages (XX for the years where no data is in the current official tables):

Percentage of students graduating with Abitur or FHR (Studienberechtigtenquote):

Year	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010
Percentage	XX	XX	XX	XX	24.1%	25.4%	26.6%	28.3%	30.2%	31.5%	32.5%

Before correcting that Statistics section according to my findings, I would like someone else to review and confirm my findings. --Phellmon 19:21, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

EDIT: I did some more research and found that the first reference only lists Allgemeinbildende Schulen (general education schools), and thus omits vocational training schools. Taking these into account, using the Excel sheets available from the Statistisches Bundesamt, and unhiding the hidden columns, I am now able to provide more complete percentages:

Percentage of students graduating with Abitur or FHR, from general education and vocational training schools (Studienberechtigtenquote):

Year	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011	2012
Percentage	19.9%	19.6%	20.4%	20.6%	20.8%	21.6%	22.2%%	23.1%	24.1%	25.1%	25.9%	28.6%	29.2%

The above numbers were calculated by adding the numbers for general education schools (referenced above) and the numbers for vocational training schools. There are Excel sheets available for download from the Website, which make the calculation easier. Here the link for the vocational schools data:

Before correcting that Statistics section according to my findings, I would like someone else to review and confirm my findings. -- Phellmon 22:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

Should it really be described as a "high school degree"? In the usage I've heard it's "high school diploma," with degrees being reserved for junior-college level and above. But has anyone a counterexample? --Daniel C. Boyer 14:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the many changes I made, but the article was a few decades out of date --Kajaktiger 20:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

High school equivilent?

Should it really be described as a "high school degree"? In the usage I've heard it's "high school diploma," with degrees being reserved for junior-college level and above. But has anyone a counterexample? --Daniel C. Boyer 14:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the many changes I made, but the article was a few decades out of date --Kajaktiger 20:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that it be compared to an associates, Associates are 2 year degree, that once you finish allows you to get a BA in 2 years... not a 1 year degree that allows BA in 3 years. An AS is just the first half of a BA.

Something close to Abitur doesn't exist in the US, so don't bother trying to compare it to High school diploma, Associates Degree, SAT, w/e, instead explain what Abitur. --Roxie Yasoxiez (talk) 15:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

You are correct in telling us that the Abitur is not as high an achievement as an associate's degree. However, the point of the original text was, I think, that the Abitur is higher in academic level as the US high school diploma. So, we need not refer to the associate's degree but to the IB and AP tests, which are somewhat similar. Some kind of comparison is helpful to the reader, although it remains inexact, by necessity. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I am from South Africa and we do NOT have A-levels. That information is incorrect. We have simply a High School Diploma with or without an "endorsement" which allows you to go to University based on the subjects you passed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Potjiekossie (talk • contribs) 19:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

UCAS

As this is the English Wiki, it would be appropriate for the article on the Abi to mention how it is integrated into the British UCAS tariff system. When German kids apply for British universities, how do they rate? This information is not readily available on the web, it's not on the UCAS website, for example, and it would be a great service if someone can provide it here. --Doric Loon 12:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

This is the Wikipedia in the English language. This is not a Wikipedia about the United Kingdom, or a Wikipedia about the United States. English is one of the most commonly used languages in the world, and perhaps the one used in the most countries. Therefore it's very common for the English Wikipedia to have articles about things commonly found only in non-English-speaking countries. Therefore I see very little reason for adding British- or American-centric material to this article just because this is the English language Wikipedia. JIP | Talk 20:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems a bit of the pot calling the kettle black to dismiss this question, in an article that is shouting for a worldview template. Perhaps we should be questioning the notability of an article entitled with a word that doesn’t even occur in English, on an exam that is only taken in Germany.

OTOH if the English WP does in fact function as a source of general knowledge for non-Germans, particularly (like it or not) people whose first or only language is English, then the equivalent value of the Abitur to other qualifications elsewhere, particularly in the US, UK, etc would be useful information.

At least then it would go some way to justify (or not) the rather snooty comment that it isn’t really comparable to the HSD, as if German students are smarter than American ones...Moonraker12 (talk) 12:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

They aren't smarter. They just have to study longer. Until they are 18 or 19. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.200.22.2 (talk) 11:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

wrong

"It is the only school leaving certificate in all states of Germany that allows the graduate (or Abiturient) to commence studies at the university." this sentence is wrong. Its the only direct way, but there are other ways via additional schools. FreddyE 10:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Could a ...

Could a Fluent english speaker who is fimilear with German education. I will put a expert need on this page in about a week.

Reaali in Finland?

Reaali in which examinees take between one and four exams, and are only allowed to answer questions from a single subject per exam. These subjects have to be chosen by the examinee well in advance prior to the exam.

Has this changed or is my memory very hazy on this subject? I seem to remember having all the subjects available to me. There was no need to choose a subject a priori to the exam; we were provided with all the "reaali" questions at once, and chose whatever we felt most comfortable with.

Of course this was before Eximia Cum Laude Approbatur was introduced and the whole system changed, so I could very well just be an old... flatulence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.217.202 (talk) 14:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The structure of the reaali was changed a couple of years ago. The cited section of the article is correct. Victor Chmara 23:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Acctualy you can only take two reaali-exams each spring and fall. You could do 6 exams in 3 different parts before you finished matriculation examination. Also you can do further exams after you have finnished your matriculation examination. I will change it to one or two exams as it is more exact if you do examination in one go. --Contributions/82.203.226.37 (talk) 11:27, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Strong bladders in Finland?

Each exam takes six hours. - is this right? Or is each paper taken in two three hour stints? Albatross2147 (talk) 11:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It is taken in a single six hour session. However, using toilet is possible. In a typical set-up, there are four teachers supervising the exam hall (one on each side). If the student wishes to go to bathroom, he raises his hand, and is guided by one of the teachers to bathroom. There are at least two closets reserved for sole use of the examinees (and closed to other pupils). The closet used in each case is chosen randomly by the teacher when the examinee is guided to the bathroom, so as to prevent leaving messages. In addition, the students are allowed to bring food and drink to the exam hall. The food must be in transparent packaging, and the bottles are to have no etiquetts, so as to prevent writing on them. --MPorciusCato (talk) 12:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

MPC, why not slot that info into the article? Jake the Editor Man _(talk) 16:40, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Abitur after twelve years

I have suggested a merger of Abitur after twelve years with this article. The topic seems there to be of only minor importance to people outside of German-speaking countries and could well be shortened and included in the Germany section of this article instead. --Axt (talk) 13:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Your proposition is correct and easily implementable. --MPorciusCato (talk) 15:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, too. I'm German and even here in Germany that topic is only a big deal in the former West German part of the country! 188.192.112.242 (talk) 08:35, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge it! That topic is allmost irrelevant to people outside of Germany, but it makes sense to mention it here. Alnitak (talk) 18:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, merge it! 188.192.112.243 (talk) 11:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge it! 188.192.97.97 (talk) 13:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Abitur Final Mark

There should be a clear, concise section on how the final Abitur mark is calculated (i.e., weights assigned to final exams, coursework, etc.). The same section should also explain the grading scale so that an outside observer may understand what a particular grade means (for example British A-Levels have grades A*, A, B, C, etc. ).

The weights and the calculation varies from state to state and sometimes from year to year. Further it often is a more complicated system. As an example the following points where added together: a certain number of courses from the last 2 years, that must include one foreign language one social study, one science German (literature).... Your major courses times 4, your result from the actual Abitur exams. All this was added up and there is a table that gives the final grade. Note that there are more restrictions on combinations and additional conditions to be meet, like you may only fail one major corse and you need to pass two courses in physical education (but you don't need to get them into the total). You need to pass the final exams as a total as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:184:4400:276F:14BE:BE1A:CB63:584B (talk) 03:58, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

In its current version, the Abitur article is incomprehensible and of little use to non-Germans. 200.168.20.231 (talk) 10:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Finland?

Why is the information on the Finnish exam here? The intro to that section says it is called ylioppilastutkinto in Finnish, which translates as "matriculation", and the section doesn't seem to mention the Abitur at all. Also, it looks like it's a different exam anyway. So why isn’t it at its own page titled Matriculation (Finland), like other "matric" pages? Moonraker12 (talk) 13:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I support this de-merger. Move the section to either Matriculation exam (Finland) or Ylioppilastutkinto like we also use the German word, why then no Finnish term? --ObersterGenosse (talk) 16:26, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! I came here today to renew this suggestion (as it's been on my to-do list for about four years now) but you beat me to it. As there has been no objection to this, and some support, I've gone ahead and moved the "Abitur in Finland" section to Matriculation exam (Finland), in line with similar articles. Moonraker12 (talk) 12:03, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Anyone mind if I attempt to remove references to WikiProject Finland? Seems like they're inappropriate. (Likewise Bulgaria or Sweden - no reference in article). JonsterMonster (talk) 10:41, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Bulgaria?

The lead sentence lists Bulgaria as a country using the Abitur. Can anyone confirm this? Does Bulgaria have a matriculation exam, and what do they call it? Moonraker12 (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

@Moonraker12: I removed these countries--Estopedist1 (talk) 15:23, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Germany: Picture Schloss in Torgelow

it says this is a typical school for germany, but actually these internate are rather rare. most students get their abitur from a normal gymnasium/high school. 88.74.72.228 (talk) 14:15, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Lithuania/Estonia?

I've had a look around on the interwebs, and I can't see anything about the leaving certificate for Lithuania or Estonia being called the Abitur. I admit, I am neither a resident of those countries or a speaker of either language, but it seems to me like there isn't much info on a Lithuanian/Estonian Abitur out there to find. Could someone please reassure me that this is actually a thing and that the 'needs more worldwide focus' tag up the top is necessary? JonsterMonster (talk) 10:38, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Equivalency section's reference to SAT and ACT + HSD no longer valid as of winter semester 2019.

Quote: "Students from other countries who hold a high school leaving certificate that is not counted as being equivalent to the Abitur (such as the American high school diploma) and who do well enough on the ACT or SAT test, may also enter German universities."

This is no longer true, now only a HSD + certain AP courses, or a college degree is recognized as equivalent to an Abitur. See https://anabin.kmk.org/filter/news/newsdetails/artikel//usa-3.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.118.249.160 (talk) 17:13, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Differing Standards

It should be mentioned that the intellectual requirements for an Abitur differ greatly within Germany. Each state or land manages its own educational system. Abitur requirements are most ambitious in Bavaria, Baden Württemberg and Saxony, and lowest in Bremen. A Bremen Abitur corresponds to a Bavarian Mittlere Reife (O levels). Ontologix (talk) 23:31, 4 June 2022 (UTC)