Talk:Abraham Lincoln University

Date of establishment

Discrepancy: The Los Angeles Times article states Park got the idea for Abraham Lincoln University during a flight from Orlando to L.A. in 2005. This contradicts the 1996 start date listed in Wikipedia. DL77 (talk) 16:33, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

• @ProfessorJDJung: do you know of any third-party sources (not affiliated with the university) that mention that date that the university was established? The university website claims 1996, but the LA Times implies 2005. On a flight home to Los Angeles from a business trip in Orlando in 2005, Hyung J. Park was flipping through a SkyMall magazine when an ad for a correspondence law school caught his eye. Thanks. Phlar (talk) 21:22, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi, yes the LA Times article has a lot of inconsistencies. The largest one being that the California Bar has a test that fails 75% of students, thus the retention rate for four year graduates will always be low due to this. This can be easily verified by looking at the 2007 through 2015 FYLSX rates posted on the California Bar website. Take a look at the ABA schools whose students take the test as well. Also take a look at the comments from our students and faculties to that article and the real truth can be determined by it. In terms of a second source for the date, there are numerous public sources where you can pull the business license date. You can also look at the Wall Street Journal article written about Abraham Lincoln University in 2004.ProfessorJDJung (talk) 18:14, 20 May 2016 (UTC)ProfessorJDJung

Here is another link with the information. http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/ Search for Abraham Lincoln University and you will see the day it was incorporated as 1996.ProfessorJDJung (talk) 18:17, 20 May 2016 (UTC)ProfessorJDJUNG

• Thanks. I found the WSJ article and added it as a reference. Regarding the California Bar pass rate in general, that does put things in perspective. If you could find a good source discussing this, I'd be happy to add this information to the article. And regarding ALU's pass rate, it looks like it's actually been quite high over the past 5 years, maybe 64 out of 106, or 60%. But I think if I were to calculate this figure myself and add it to the article, it might constitute "original research". Phlar (talk) 21:52, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Another reference to the start of the university as well as why it was started can be found here. http://www.alu.edu/about/presidents-welcome.php 216.240.44.169 (talk) 19:15, 26 May 2016 (UTC)ProfessorJDJung

Notable alumni

I'm removing the Notable Alumni section because all of the alumni appear to be rather obscure, run-of-the mill lawyers. None of them even come close to meeting Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Phlar (talk) 20:24, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

• Hello Phlar, thank you for the history change, however I believe notable is subject. Many of the attorneys listed have given talks and started their own practices. I think it's very helpful for students looking up information on a university to note alumni the school is proud of. I've changed the title to alumni of the university. If this violates the guidelines please let me know. Thank you for your time. ProfessorJDJung (talk) 20:39, 18 May 2016 (UTC)ProfessorJDJung
  • Hi, ProfessorJDJung. Yes, it does violate the guidelines for university articles. See "noted people" under Article structure on the college and university article advice page: For most schools this might take the form of a list of people meeting Wikipedia's notability standards (each with perhaps a very brief descriptive phrase), where such a list would not be excessively long. As I wrote above, none of those lawyers meet the notability standards, and therefore none of them belong in a list of alumni on wikipedia. If the university feels a general list of alumni who are practicing lawyers would be useful to prospective students, the university might create such a list on it's own website. Developing such a list on wikipedia would violate the prohibition against original research. Are you affiliated with the university? Phlar (talk) 20:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
    • Hello. Yes I am, I'm currently a professor here and someone notified me that our Wikipedia post was outdated. To contribute to Wikipedia I took it upon myself to update the website, since I do work here and know a lot about the university. I'm still a bit confused on what is required to be considered notable, since the list of attorneys all have started there own successful law practices. Johnathan Kramer is actually published and been in the Daily Journal. He also gives talks at Yale regarding telecommunications law as well.ProfessorJDJung (talk) 21:18, 18 May 2016 (UTC)ProfessorJDJung
      • @ProfessorJDJung: The standards of notability are listed in the notability guidelines. For help interpreting these, you could post a question at the Help desk.

By the way, the fact that you are a professor at the university presents a clear conflict of interest. You should avoid editing this article yourself, if at all possible. Instead, you should suggest changes on this talk page and make sure to cite 3-rd party sources that are not affiliated with the university. Phlar (talk) 21:05, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Phlar, I apologize as I am not aware of the posting requirement for Wikipedia. I took a peek at the guidelines and I believe they could write a semester long course on figuring out all the different guidelines that Wikipedia has.ProfessorJDJung (talk) 21:32, 19 May 2016 (UTC)ProfessorJDJung

• @ProfessorJDJung: Yeah, it's a bit convoluted---there should be a wikpedia bar exam. ;-) By the way, do you have any thoughts on the "Date of establishment" topic above? Phlar (talk) 22:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Abraham Lincoln University. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160412094507/http://www.alu.edu/academics/bar-exam-passage-rates.php to http://www.alu.edu/academics/bar-exam-passage-rates.php

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:11, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Unnecessary details about memberships

Danceswithedits is insisting that this article include separate paragraphs and subsections about (a) the university's membership in CHEA, (b) the university's approval by the state's bar association, and (c) the university's licensure by the state's Bureau for Private Postsecondary Education. He or she is also edit warring to change the capitalization of the section titles is violation of our Manual of Style.

The CHEA information is unnecessary; it provides no substantive, useful information for readers. We simply don't need this information and certainly not in a dedicated paragraph.

The paragraphs about the bar association and state approval are unnecessarily detailed, largely duplicative of one another, and duplicative of what is already in the article. It's unnecessary to write the same thing three times in three different places in the article.

@Danceswithedits: Why are you edit warring to add this unnecessary information and violate our Manual of Style? ElKevbo (talk) 15:54, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Warring? Hardly. Why are you deleting valid information related to this institution?? Is this a personal issue with ALU? Accreditations, registrations, memberships, etc. are completely relevant for prospective students and the public in general, for any higher ed institution. No duplication exists in this article. What violation are you referring to? I've added original, valid, non-copyrighted material once, and it has been removed twice, followed by subsequent re-publishing. I ask that you cease and desist attacks on this page and in ALU in general. Danceswithedits (talk) 16:09, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Cut out the personal attacks; they're not acceptable and they're not productive.

Why exactly do readers need to know about the institution's CHEA membership? We're not obligated to include all information that is accurate and published in reliable sources; we only include information that is relevant and meaningful for readers and their understanding of the subject.

Why do we need have separate paragraphs about the institution's different approvals, saying the same basic thing three different times? ElKevbo (talk) 16:21, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Bar pass rate Original Research and PRIMARY sourcing

@ElKevbo: Where on that link does it say what ALU's bar pass rate is? I don't see ALU mentioned anywhere. WP:PRIMARY sources are generally not suitable for statements like this, because they can too easily be cherry-picked for favorable or critical content. ---Avatar317^(talk) 01:09, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

For example, 2020, 2019, 2018 and other years' data may tell different stories.---Avatar317^(talk) 01:17, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

The California Bar has summary data for each bar administration going back to 2007 on their website. You're right that the URL used in the article was not a direct link (nor was it the most recent data); I've fixed that now.

You're welcome to add data from previous years. A template or common table that can be used in the articles for all California law schools would be great if you have the time and interest! ElKevbo (talk) 01:50, 17 January 2023 (UTC)